Everyday NLP; Practical NLP for Every Day Use - NLP Chat
Practical NLP for Every Day Use.
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IRC Chat Log, March 19, 1998
Everyday NLP! | |
Jonathan | OK folks -- welcome to the channel for another in the SERIES of chats here... This one's more open ended than some...! I wanna talk about specifically how can we use SIMPLE NLP Techniques EASILY AND NATURALLY over the course of every day, in between conversations, while we're driving (or waiting at lights), while we're talking with friends and loved ones... |
RodMunch | sounds good to me |
MetaMan | Have you ever... |
RodMunch | getting stopped by the cops |
wendi | I have a question....could be a topic... looking for one? Kids and NLP |
MetaMan | ITS THE HOW YOU RUN YOUR BUS DURING THE DAY TALK |
galamud | heeeheeee =) |
Jonathan | while getting intimate (whoops! that was last chat topic!), right before you go to sleep.... etc.... and it occurs to me that what do I do the most of every day... but take care of errands. Or simple tasks. |
Dan_26 | everyday. . . integrating skill into the routine contexts that are an integral part of life |
galamud | dan, that was a superb mix of terms I don't understand =) |
Dan_26 | how about if we start with the morning, beginning the day, awakening |
Jonathan | Morning is a good Time!!!! |
Morning! | |
Jonathan | What are some of the things some of you do -- to brighten up your day... |
galamud | is this a good time for us to jump in, right now? |
wendi | so, it's morning ...now what? |
MetaMan | I do spinal energy lingustics in the morning and night all ways |
Jonathan | to plan for a better time/life/day etc |
galamud | kick ass, I predicted it! =) |
Dan_26 | galamud, i excel at that, have a nominalization from my bag'o nom's |
RodMunch | I listen to death metal to brighten my day |
galamud | thank you, don't mind if I do! I'll take this pretty red one. |
Jonathan | Can we take the side comments OUT of the chat, please. |
misjief | I anchor myself with some male scratching... it is a ritual |
wendi | I go back to bed |
Dan_26 | how about waking up itself. . . motivating yourself to get out of bed once the alarm goes off, first thought? |
Jonathan | HAH! |
Stygian | What are spinal energy lingustics? |
Jonathan | Wendi -- thats funny! And as you drift back to sleep... what do you daydream about? |
RodMunch | Dan: good one |
Designer1 | I think about my goals, people that inspire me. |
wendi | sorry! oooh, waking |
Dan_26 | nice jonathan :) |
MetaMan | they are statements that get the spine and your body to self-align |
Jonathan | Goals... people... |
Dan_26 | bandler/grinder mentioning having to urinate as a joke, but seriously. . . |
galamud | I sleep as late as I possibly can, then I get up, dress quickly, put in my contacts, jump in the car and pop in a lovely Ben Folds Five tape, until I get really perky and start singing along. Then I'm ready for the day. |
wendi | dream about waking up? hows that for a strategy? Actually sometimes in the morning I close my eyes and just tell myself I will feel really energizied in 10 minutes |
Dan_26 | daily duties and responsibilities usually get me awake, i think of what needs to be done and get up so i can do it |
Styg | I drink caffine. It wakes me up in the morning. |
misjief | that doesn't work me- I dream I am at work - boss notices i am not |
MetaMan | that's one level of living what about the rest |
wendi | party pooper |
Howard | I wake right up and then try to stay oblivious for the next hour or so... |
galamud | Coke in the morning makes me feel queasy, and I can't stand coffee, so I have to find other ways to get in a good mood. |
Jonathan | Sure, caffeine is a MAJOR anchor for some people. I think HABIT & RITUAL is half the reason for Decaf coffee in the 1st place. |
wendi | get up do ya dan? like how up? I look forward to the shower. I get really anxious to get in the shower |
Dan_26 | i'm focus on the moment you become aware that a new day has begun, before your eyes open, before you get up, before the caffiene? |
Jonathan | Neat, Wendi....... HOW do you get really anxious to get in the shower? |
wendi | I get answers to my questions in the shower -- like help with clients, inspirations. I write commercials. how, hmmmm... I feel the hot water on my (naked) body. I think about what I might hear that will help my with my day, I sometimes hear answers in the shower; sometimes take the coffee in with me :) |
Stygian | caffeine is a chemical anchor |
Dan_26 | (wishing we could have explored the awakening hour more, i'll just follow the group though :) |
Jonathan | And as you... feel the hot water on your naked body, is it your voice internally or other people's voices? |
misjief | That would get me up..... imagining wendi in the shower (sorry couldn't resist) |
wendi | And if I am feeling good, i sing. I always know I am not feeling so well if I am not singing. Other people's... |
RodMunch | I'm with you dan, I'd like to figure a way to avoid shutting off the alarm clock in my sleep and dozing too long |
Jonathan | I like that CONTRAST of temperature in my stomach/throat vs. whats OUTSIDE me when I take a drink in the shower. |
wendi | it is like their... HA! I am sorry you stopped my fingers dead on the keyboard |
Jonathan | The contrast can be a WONDERFUL set of sensations. I wonder how that would/could help us to improve our state... didn't it? |
MetaMan | wondering how many imaginations of wendi actually match wendi |
wendi | so, there is like this voice that comes in from above |
MetaMan | like me |
wendi | It's so boring to shave my legs every time. How can we make that a little more interesting? |
galamud | remember the threat of cutting yourself! |
MetaMan | Connect it to an orgasm that you have at the end with every stroke leading you up to completion in more wasy then one |
Designer1 | Theory: Hot shower on her naked body releases pleasures in her body, which relax her mind (put her into a light trance), she has better concentration, no distractions around... |
galamud | Never mind, I like metaman's better. |
Jonathan | OK we're back to Sex... |
MetaMan | Jon when did we ever really leave? I am a sex junkie, but hey, it's legal! |
wendi | Actually, an NLP Trainer once suggested that I spend two extra minutes in the shower, every morning. Dont remember what else he said, but I do that every morning. |
RodMunch | Hmmm, can we discuss how to link orgasms to shaving? |
Jonathan | Well why not, Sex is a great anchor & has MANY associations. |
Mid-Day! | |
misjief | we could reframe hair legs as a good thing |
wendi | Oh, boy. We are going there, are we? |
Designer1 | oh man |
Dan_26 | imagine how beautiful your legs will look once they have been shaved, and keep that image in your mind until the external matches the internal |
Jonathan | Alright guys, settle down --- |
MetaMan | TRANCE TIME |
galamud | lunch has always been a big deal to me! |
Jonathan | and think about some of the situations you got yourself in earlier this week... which were less than effective moments... |
wendi | if I start having orgasms while shaving ...y'all are in trouble |
MetaMan | After lunch is an excelletn time to walk and do mind frames |
galamud | I have my best ideas at lunch. And in the shower. |
Jonathan | like, arguments with working colleagues... |
MetaMan | wendi..I said AFTER |
Jonathan | internal dialogue... |
galamud | And sometimes I just walk around outside and enjoy the weather. |
Jonathan | Cool, weather ;) |
wendi | whats a mind frame? Me and galaud in the shower? Having ideas? |
galamud | is that an invitation? =) if it is, I am THERE! |
MetaMan | the games one does with perception/anchors/meta pgrs/ levels.. etc |
wendi | Oh, meta. Hey are you Kevin? maybe............ |
Designer1 | BBL...idling |
MetaMan | hey, how big is this shower |
Jonathan | Its a pretty big shower. |
misjief | u eat lunch in the shower?? are we all there? |
wendi | if only you knew the path to this shower, (big enuf) |
Howard | I'm throwing the soap up. Let's see who catches it. |
RodMunch | I'm still curious as to how to link shaving to orgasm? I wouldn't mind having that anchor in there somewhere. |
MetaMan | does kevin get in the shower |
Jonathan | What kinds of little tricks can you play internally... to improve behavior... on a more regular basis? In the shower, of course, to keep this topical. |
galamud | kind of like that seinfeld where kramer does everything in the shower =) |
wendi | no, no lunch; soggy sandwich bad. Are you kevin? |
MetaMan | i have a powerful one... |
Jonathan | Yes? |
misjief | lets play a game of naked twister - we guys have an unfair advantage tho (think about it) |
wendi | that was tooo funny. he should wonder |
Dan_26 | hot/cold water in the face works well for a refreshing state change |
Howard | Shower is my intuition time. I let my mind roam over problems and solve them. |
galamud | no comment! |
Jonathan | EXCELLENT Dan... |
wendi | honey, swish your powerful one over here. (just trying to stay on topic!) I guess I dont have the market on shower inspiration |
MetaMan | ok here is a useful one... |
RodMunch | there is a topic here? |
Jonathan | instant break-state & powerful state change! There IS a topic here. |
wendi | I think someone oughta invent a shower computer, so I can type out my ideas while they are still fresh. I was thinking kevin hogan |
Dan_26 | awake, brush teeth, splash cold water in face, shower--hot water in face (again, that mixture of hot/cold sensations we mentioned earlier) |
Jonathan | We're looking for the little golden nuggets of instant NLP tools & fun you can have, in any given situation... |
misjief | J- have you ever given yourself a suggestion that you would do such and such the second you heard the alarm go off |
wendi | yes there is a topic -- It is... how can you shave your legs and do NLP in the shower and..... |
Jonathan | And the ATTITUDE of looking for all the wonderful ways in which you can... ENJOY the search for how much you haven't yet done to absorb LIFE in a wonderful way... |
RodMunch | OK I guess most of this is over my head. I haven't followed any little golden nuggets of instant NLP tools & fun you can have, in any given situation... |
Jonathan | is the pervasive attitude of living NLP skills at the core... |
MetaMan | he's actually my neighbor and we play hypno-fuck-with your mind games he's got a sense of humor |
misjief | I wake up in the showere wondering how i got there |
Dan_26 | i would really like to at some point now go back to the moment of awakening and elicit various strategies for awakening |
RodMunch | I'm with Dan |
Jonathan | to improve ALL of life by going FIRST into an amazing state... of exploration... and looking at the world with WONDERMENT at some point NOW |
Dan_26 | ;) |
Questor_ | I've got one Jonathan... |
wendi | How about michael. Do we have a michael in the house? My world just doesnt feel like wonderment too much |
Jonathan | ummm... just for that let's do it later |
Jonathan | Go for it QUESTOR |
Howard | Jonathan: that's the early morning workout shows from the beach. |
Dan_26 | Mmmmm |
Questor_ | This is something I've been experiementing with... simple concept really... |
wendi | It feels like work |
MetaMan | everyone SHUT UP and Jon and I will share some stuff and you can share back |
Jonathan | That's one way to quiet everyone, I suppose... |
galamud | yeah, but I feel insulted now and less likely to appreciate the teachings. |
Dan_26 | just for that, i'm going to talk lol |
Jonathan | (whispering to Meta-Man "You play the Bad Guy!") |
misjief | meta is that persuasion WOW |
MetaMan | ok...1st. since this is NLP in the daily life... Lets do this one for fun. Take any situation in your mind that is a bother |
Questor_ | I was talking with some people at work about how fridays feel so different than the rest of the weekdays... I've noticed that people will be joking around a lot, having fun, and say something like, "Wow! You can really tell it's friday!" |
Jonathan | (2 threads going) Q finish up |
wendi | i'm gonna go take a shower if you dont hurry up |
MetaMan | now step mentally back until you have more information in mind about the experiance |
Questor_ | So I've been working with eliciting submods for friday, and applying them to every day of the week... makes things feel MUCH better, instead of the "monday morning blues"... I'm done; (Jonathan:) I'm finished. :) |
MetaMan | now...step back again untiul the amount of info you take in is doubled |
Jonathan | COOL, Questor! (Q hold it until later tho) |
MetaMan | Q: good one, dude (multi-tracking) |
RodMunch | meta: when you say step back, do you mean observe the situation as a "Fly on the wall?" |
MetaMan | now... having stepped back 2x and extended your perception 2x shift..with this knowledge, to 1st, then 2nd then 3rd position. (to Rod:) what ever gets you to back up from the course of action you take or would take |
The THREE Positions! | |
Jonathan | CLARIFICATION for newbies here or reading this later!!!! (WAIT) 1st Position - from your own eyes, 2nd Position - from someone else's eyes, 3rd Position - from the fly on the wall position -- seeing all the people in the situation "objectively" (GO AHEAD, Pheonix)! |
MetaMan | actually I dont like the fly on the wall because angles matter. and it seems to work better if each perception is done at eye level |
Jonathan | True |
MetaMan | ok...so some way suggest a situation where something didnt go your way or plan |
Jonathan | Someone just mentioned to me in a private message, that to them, 2nd position = 3rd position... and I wanted to clarify -- If I'm working thru a conversation in my past that didn't work for me.... 2nd position is through the OTHER person's eyes, looking back at me, head on. |
MetaMan | 2nd position is poorly understood..i'd like to take few lines here and clear it up what 2nd psotition is effective at achieving |
Jonathan | 3rd position is outside of the immediate situation and often a wider-angle... sometimes more distant from the actions being remembered (not always) --- go for it Meta |
MetaMan | when a person is doing 2nd postiion it is not enough to JUST see through anothers eye at you |
Jonathan | These are useful skills to cover. |
misjief | isn't the 3rd person non-partial - while 2nd is in the other's shoes so to speak? |
Jonathan | Yes, misjief, exactly... |
MetaMan | a mirror or vcr and monitor would do that and that is not that much diff from 3rd postition |
Jonathan | YES, Meta... Keep going on this point!!! |
MetaMan | to do 2nd justice it is important to percieve with the values/meta-prgs/filters/breathing rate/body rythym of the other THEN AND ONLY THEN are you really doing 2nd postion. This is something that many have missed in NLP |
Dan_26 | so 3rd is the only view that is dissociated from being inside someone (you [1st] or the other person [2nd])? |
MetaMan | From my experience and practice...yes! Everyone try their 2nd position with these new steps..it requires some smart guessing or elictation and I think you'll find the info better suited |
Jonathan | Yes, Dan I'd agree with this. Now. Lets make this a LITTLE more accessible to people. |
MetaMan | go for it Ive done my Bandler :) |
misjief | and if you add others then you go tho their view and one for the impartial or overview |
Jonathan | 2nd position -- if you're only "seeing" what you think they see, granted, its not really second position. But recognizing that this is where many beginners start from... ALL it takes is to just begin to add in more and more accurate physiological mirroring... more and more accurate meta-program modeling, etc... and as the pieces of the model become more accurate, the more accurate your second position work will become! Does this make sense? |
MetaMan | it is what is meant when the saying is uttered "walk a mile in anothers moccasin" |
misjief | yes and no |
MetaMan | moccasins "conform" to the orginal owners unique foot pattern |
Jonathan | The MORE you properly & effectively model... the more accurate or USEFUL your observations will be in second position. |
MetaMan | jon...define modeling for us newbies |
Jonathan | And if you MOCK a Sin... Forgetta-boutit. |
misjief | if I think I am ugly - I don't want to put emphasis on that through her eyes - because I will reflect that thought in my actions |
Jonathan | Modeling is something that is so often defined differently in NLP... Every definition is both truth and lie at the same time. For different people. |
Dan_26 | oh those nominalizations ;) ya can't put it in a bucket |
Jonathan | Modeling is about taking on as MUCH as possible of another persons' experience, subjectivity, knowledge, point-of-view, mental processing, etc.... |
MetaMan | clarify the "taking on" part |
Jonathan | And NLP provides us many models for learning these things... and learning how to model... |
misjief | j- I love this- at the same time a great trick is to see yourself thru her eyes as you wish to be |
Jonathan | And NLP provides us many WAYS OF TAKING ON ANOTHER'S STRATEGIES! NOW, the MAGIC, of TAKING 1st POSITION, THEN 2nd POSITION, THEN 3rd POSITION, is in gaining rapidity and flexibility... so as to be able to do it more effectively... because in the IDEAL circumstance for behaving MOST effectively for yourself and others... As a NLP'er... Your top goal in using positions... |
MetaMan | thats my goal in life and in bed |
Jonathan | is to be able to see from ALL THREE POSITIONS CONCURRENTLY, easily... and be aware of the implications of your actions from all those points of view. When you get to THAT point... your behavior takes on a WHOLE DIFFERENT DIMENSION.... |
MetaMan | not just see, experiance all 3 perceptional positions |
Jonathan | of fluidity... rapport... integrated skills... thoughtfulness... strategic intentions... YES, EXPERIENCE.... |
misjief | J- u said everything was a lie.... so shouldn't you be able to exert some choice in the lie you pick |
Dan_26 | so you must rapidly consider an action, go through all 3 views, and then act according to which action will allow your desired outcome to be met |
Jonathan | So its NOT necessary to expect that you can do this easily and fast YET until you've spent a little time practicing each one... more and more fully... and then amplifying the experience for yourself...and then moving back and forth... and practicing the speed of the shifting views... |
misjief | pick a useful one that empowers you rather then a bummer |
Jonathan | and then learning to see/experience multiple views easily! |
Jonathan | What can you use these 3 positions for, all day long>? The GOALS of the above... is to recognize circumstances AS they're happening ... and begin to find yourself being more able to pay attention when you're responding to people in less than wonderful ways, and utilize these techniques for learning to come up with NEW ways to respond -- perhaps in ways that you haven't yet discovered or imagined.... |
MetaMan | speaking of which... |
wendi | I would like to do that. Recognize and change as it happens. That sounds good, especially on the spot. |
misjief | dig the reframe |
Jonathan | Because... |
wendi | I think of one time when I will be observing myself at a task... teaching school |
Jonathan | what would happen if you're ABOUT to say something really less-than-graceful... and you just STOP... and think about it from your own perspective... model them rapidly and think about it from their perspective... with their hopes, needs, & concerns in mind instead of yours... then... |
wendi | All it takes is one breath before you speak |
Jonathan | think about it from the fly-on-the-wall position... and... wonder just what discoveries from all those positions TOGETHER will bring to mind... and how your mouth then opens up, and says something DIFFERENT... of its own accord.... ONE BREATH -- A DEEEEEEEP BREATH |
wendi | not that kind of breath |
Jonathan | no? then what? |
wendi | really, I like to take a breath before I speak. In that time, I decide if it is worth saying. |
Howard | When I can do that, I will have accomplished my goal in learning NLP. |
wendi | now, I can take the 3rd position during that breath |
Jonathan | (BTW -- PHOENIX -- MetaMan... is taking off and wants to say goodbye without interrupting (how polite!) -- I'll say bye-bye from everyone -- (sorry wendi -- I'm listening!) |
wendi | OK |
Jonathan | Excellent choice/method... |
wendi | It might help with my class of 13 year old boys; |
misjief | that is kinda kewl- timing the positions to the rythem of the breathe |
Jonathan | Howard -- when you can do what -- see all 3 positions? |
Howard | Stop and say something different. |
Jonathan | Really? Thats all you want to be able to do more and more and more and more |
Howard | And, this is one technique that strikes me as a powerful way to do it. |
Jonathan | So what other goals will manifest themselves after you've reached this goal already? |
Howard | That's my goal. When I get there, the other things I learn on the way will lead to new goals. |
misjief | So what? Other goals will manifest themselves after. You've reached this goal already! That is better, hell yes. Would you have caught it otherwise? |
Howard | misjief: I leave that to whatever happens. Or, I try to keep an open mind about it. |
misjief | I missed the thought behind the words - help me with it. Howard? I don't understand? misjief: I leave that to whatever happens. Or, I try to keep an open mind about it. |
Howard | I set some specific goals, otherwise I try to leave myself open to whatever surprises life brings. Is that clearer? |
We Sure Are Rambling Here... | |
Jonathan | this is the biggest group we've had online in a while -- and though we meandered a LOT in a fun way at first... we ended up with a few really cool techniques to utilize from each other! |
galamud | thank you =) |
Jonathan | So I want to STOP... and START to think about specific things people want to actually improve in their day-to-day activities. So. |
wendi | stop? |
Jonathan | Lets take specific circumstances, and ask people here... one by one... if there's something SIMPLE and quick that they'd like to get past... and play together here in the #NLP channel to arrive at ideas for that person's issue...! |
tkwr | Greetings all |
RodMunch | so far 2 things have really sparked my interest...anchoring orgasms to shaving and getting out of bed w/o turning off the alarm clock and going back to sleep... I'd rather hear about waking up in the morning, though. |
Jonathan | Hiya tkwr -- we're 1 hr into the chat |
wendi | Well, rod, you'll have to start shaving your legs |
Jonathan | So there are people here that have trouble waking up effectively in the mornings? |
Dan_26 | that anchor has already been set, wendi will never view shaving her legs the same way ever again :) |
misjief | i think he' rather borrow yours for the job *LOL* |
RodMunch | I know dan26 was talking about it earlier (waking up) |
galamud | yeah, I always wake up late. |
Dan_26 | i would just like to explore other people's strategies - if this is a good time, if not, later |
Jonathan | WHO here... wakes up ON TIME, all the time? I'm going right to the meat of the matter! |
Virgin | I used to, for many years, but not any more. |
Dan_26 | i do for the most part, but what i do at that moment isn't always the most useful :) |
Jonathan | Anyone? Anyone? BUELLER? Almost all of us wake up late, or at different times...? ;) |
RodMunch | looks like we have a good topic to talk about |
misjief | i think the trick is to be more excited about your day then sleep, like snowboarding - I am never late |
galamud | I'm somewhat wide awake when my alarm goes off the first time, but I go back to sleep anyway, just because I can. After that, I'm exhausted. |
Jonathan | That's one trick. |
Dan_26 | the addiction of the altered state that presents itself at the waking moment, i think :) |
Jonathan | So its Dan and misjief, then? |
kallee | Is the issue waking up or getting up? |
Jonathan | hehheh nice distinction, kallee... |
RodMunch | I am ALWAYS more excited about the day than I am about sleep; I think sleep is a waste of time, yet I can't get up no matter how many alarm clocks I set. |
Dan_26 | oooh, like that kallee |
Jonathan | Alright, Dan & misjief... |
misjief | the other that I really think is fun is to suggest that you will immediately proceed to the shower when the alarm goes off; you wake up to find your ass in the shower and lost as to how you got there |
Jonathan | is it true that you get up regularly, on time, generally consistently... |
Dan_26 | sure |
Jonathan | and that includes waking up followed by getting up, right? |
galamud | I can only really get up if I feel an extremely pressing need to. Such as DEFINITE impending lateness, or a one-time-only event. |
kallee | I lay in bed and do the breathing in for 4 hold for 16 out for 8 that takes about 4 min then I get up |
Dan_26 | varies on daily duties. . . |
Jonathan | Just talking to Dan for the moment, folks -- plz hang on everyone else -- |
Dan_26 | the thoughts of what i need to accomplish during the day usually compell me to get up |
misjief | rods trick works great - till you get tired and swich priorities back to sleep because you need it |
Jonathan | Attempting to cleanly model Dan's waking strategies. Hold it Dan -- go back to the beginning... to that state you were in EARLY this morning... ;) And see if you can close your eyes and remember what it was like to wake up... (at the angle you were at, etc...) if there was music or talking or noise, or light, etc |
Dan_26 | ok, i'm there |
kallee | see yourself having handled (successfully) all of the daily duties. notice the resources that allowed your success and install them before you get up. |
Jonathan | WHAT OCCURRED, in terms of sensory specific information, and in what order? (I like it Kallee!) |
Dan_26 | then again, i awake several times, which one would you like me to select, the final one where i actually get up? |
Jonathan | Dan -- give us the sequence as you recall it. If the cycle occurs for like, 3 hours, then, you may not be the ideal model ;) but if you wake up a few times EARLY, and still get up "on time" then that could be useful. |
Dan_26 | i usually wake after every dream cycle. . . |
Jonathan | REALLY? interesting. That does happen with some people. every 90 minutes or so. |
Dan_26 | yea, use to be heavily into dream study/lucid dreaming. |
Jonathan | Thats why I try to get sleep in increments of 90 minutes. 3 hrs, 4.5 hrs, 6 hrs, 7.5 hrs (if I'm feeling REALLY luxuriant) cool. OK, so you wake up roughly every 90 minutes or so... how much sleep do you actually get? (usually)> |
Dan_26 | hmmmm. . . weekdays, usually 7 hours on average |
Jonathan | ok, and do you get up at the same time every day? go to sleep at the same time every day? |
Dan_26 | roughly. . . once it's time to get up, i usually snooze the clock and fade in and out of hypnagogic imagery until the absolute last minute i can remain there. Need a stronger motivation to remove myself from that state and into getting up |
Jonathan | Well, this just seems like the usual fighting it until the last minute... ;) |
Dan_26 | ok |
Jonathan | Not the ideal model for people wanting to learn WANTON motivation strategies for FACING the world in the early AM... HUNGRY for the wonder that awaits... ;) (my opinion, Dan, could be you're the ideal model for it) |
galamud | cy'all, time for me to get some sleep =) |
Jonathan | It may be that you've got your fighting down to a set pattern... with limited damage and risk control -- i.e., you KNOW the last minute beyond which it would do you harm to sleep longer. i.e., you'd be late for work, or something similar. That's avoidance. Well, I suggest we choose another topic -- another issue someone else would like to explore in everyday life... because we don't have any resident morning glories to model... ;) OR... |
Dan_26 | i'll let my unconsious handle that one |
Exploring someone's Motivational Strategy | |
tkwr | Jon... I've got one for you... Which is I have a close and dear friend....who has VERY unrealistic expectations about success and what is required to be good at something....such that unless they can do it PERFECT, they usually don't even try..... So..the issue is...how do we get this person OFF of their self-pity and into motivation land? |
Jonathan | Alright, IO might want to know what is their motivation strategy for something they already know they can do beautifully? I think I LIKE this topic/issue! |
tkwr | Usually what they already know they can do has to do with things that are INHERENTLY fun for them..in other words, the activity ITSELF is very enjoyable..... And I think a HUGE part of it is the unrealistic expectation that things should be EASY for them..... |
kallee | move the location of the modal operator |
Jonathan | side-line comment for new folks to NLP -- NORMALLY I would not want to help someone with someone ELSE's motivation strategy -- because the levels of indirection lead to some weird tangents and inaccurate assessments -- in this case I trust tkwr's assessments pretty solidly. |
misjief | is that self-pity?? |
tkwr | Yes..self-pity I would call it..... Thank you..trust me..I know this person INTIMATELY well ;) By the way..it is most defintely NOT me! |
Jonathan | ok, let me review here (I know, tkwr!). Let me ask a question about the activity. Is it something that involves a lot of people? Something that the person thinks is not inherently EASY and EASY to do perfectly, when done with GROUPS? |
tkwr | And by the way..my GUT tells me that their is some hypnotic phenomena going on...that is SOME incident where they were let down or disappointed by someone early in life and decided, "FUCK IT..I'm never gonna try ever again...what's the use?" In other words...hang on...hang on a sec... Forgive me, Jon... |
Jonathan | sure |
tkwr | Your patience and pardon for a moment my friend... |
Jonathan | ;) tkwr is using softeners ;) LOTS of em |
tkwr | I sense almost a different personality or ego/state centered around the emotions of disappointment and APATHY..like..WHY BOTHER...NOTHING I EVER DO WILL BE GOOD ENOUGH..." When you get this person in their more adult, upbeat state, they are QUITE capable.... |
Jonathan | ok. Is it related to groups or not? |
tkwr | But ANY sign from the outside that things aren't going their way tends to bang them back(ha ha ha) into that earlier, childish, "what's the use" state... So at BEST..their motivation is a temporary thing they work themselves into. I don't think it is group related.... So I guess the issue is: How do we diminish that childish state and build in and energize something better... |
Jonathan | ok. So it sounds like you've tried a NUMBER of things already to redirect their motivation, without success YET. True? |
tkwr | YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! |
Jonathan | ok I got it ;) |
kallee | sounds like they should look at the value the attach to the activity |
tkwr | I just know..there is something TRANCEY going on with them.. |
Jonathan | You explain what you *think* is going on, and what history might be at cause... and I guess I would be curious if they told you this, or if this is your insight. |
Jonathan | Simple question (more for me than for you) Have you set up a propulsion system with BOTH the TOWARDS and the AWAYFROM, and then amplified both? |
tkwr | It's a DEEP gut level instinct...plus based on some conclusions from what I know of their family history... |
Jonathan | Maybe put them both into motion? ok thanks for the additional info. |
tkwr | Away from what? That's my point..... |
Jonathan | ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh DING! Are THEY digusted with their own inaction? |
tkwr | It's a dissociated ego state that this person has little or NO awareness of when they are upbeat and happy... |
Jonathan | Is that something you can build in? disgusted even? |
tkwr | Yes..they ARE disgusted by it..I think it makes them depressed and I don't know if I want to move them further that way..I think they already hav ea fear on some level it's something they are STUCK with... But I see your point.... |
Jonathan | What if you can attach ACTION to disgust... |
misjief | it seems to me like they are trying to please someone outside themselves- someone that wouldn't or couldn't be pleased - since it has become a habit they are comfy with |
Jonathan | maybe metaphorically -- like with a story of how disgust doesn't lead to inaction -- it leads to puking... and after the purge.. people usually feel better and start doing MORE |
tkwr | You mean they feel disgusted..and TAKE action to move out of that state? I don't know if that would make for a very happy person... more productive, but..well... |
misjief | so now that inaction has become a saftey net to keep them from the disappointment |
tkwr | Ahh..so you are saying...disgust----->>>>>purge------>>>action... |
Jonathan | So if that doesn't work, you find an away-from... and amplify it. |
tkwr | Ok... Hmm. |
Jonathan | Right. |
tkwr | This person used to be bulimic... I don't know if I want to go in the PURGE direction, but I get your drift... Problem is..they tend to get REALLY stuck in the negative Kinesthetic-Internal....So what would the "purge" be???? |
Jonathan | Good -- so we could use a different metaphor... (Editor's note: I'm glad tkwr saw the intent behind the specifics!) anchor in a chain of states using something other than that specific.... |
tkwr | Hitting something? throwing things???? |
Jonathan | Hmmmm. It doesn't necessarily need to be a purge... lets see... GLUE... |
tkwr | Or maybe remove the old incident that triggered the whole problem in the first place.... |
Jonathan | ACETONE/MINERAL SPIRITS -- dissolving the stuck 'crap' (thinking out loud) ... clean slate... new nails... I don't know... still thinking! |
misjief | tkwr- do they get hung up doing it wrong? |
tkwr | I thought of maybe some sentence completion: "Nothing I do will ever be good enough for X" |
misjief | is that their exact words |
Howard | Primal scream. Oh wrong group... |
tkwr | "If I try, I'll only Y", "If I get it wrong, I'll Z" (Yes,....they do Mis...) |
misjief | kewl- |
Jonathan | That could work -- to get their VALUES |
kallee | amplify the unwanted state (future pace etc. ) Then a swish into the resourceful state. |
misjief | do this |
Dan_26 | bedtime here, i'll catch the log, this is great! night guys |
misjief | make doing something wrong the goal |
misjief | either they succeed or they dont |
tkwr | And also look at the secondary gain.."What would I have to do that I don't do know because I'm all hung up with this?" |
Jonathan | Those sentence completions would get their values and their RULES/FILTERS/METAPROGS that support them. YES. |
misjief | where does that leave them |
tkwr | What will happen to my life if I DON'T do those tings?? what will it feel like? |
Jonathan | Youd find out if they were values -- or just... MEANS to an end. You're kind of using Tony Robbins'ish techniques there. But they work, of course. |
misjief | infact make it fun! tkwr either way approve of them - maybe not the action but them |
tkwr | Hmmthanks for the suggestion...I gotta go watch SEINFELD! SEEYA! |
Jonathan | Enjoy! |
misjief | I have to go, hope that works |
tkwr | P.S...Sargy is doing fine now, after his fight with whatever nailed him! Thanks for all the good wishes! |
Jonathan | Wish we had a few more minutes on that one -- perhaps another time. |
tkwr | Ok! Bye! MEERRROWWWW! |
Jonathan | May as well close the chat out! Thanks EVERYONE for coming -- tkwr for stopping in... Thank YOU all for coming and participating! |
FT_Hobbes | thanks Jon! |
IRC CHAT OVER! |
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