Recently, on social media, an NLP Practitioner asked a question about a client who reported having a phobia, and with whom he used the NLP Fast Phobia Cure, which may have partly worked, but it came back a few days later?
NLP Milton Model & Artfully Vague NLP Language Patterns: Chat Transcript
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IRC Chat Log, March 26, 1998
The Milton Model | |
| Jonathan | OK! Welcome to another in this ongoing series without a series... in the IRC chats on NLP -- this one's about an oldie but goodie... :) where we learn how to deliver information in artfully vague ways... towards a certain end. Now. From the start I'd like to point out that this is about inducing trance. And that whoever reads this -- whoever is interested in trance... should be aware that if you plan on doing any of this in any "official capacity" -- ya oughtta be aware of the local/state laws on such things. Caveat ASIDE, lets get into some cool material here! The Milton Model in NLP helps us become more artfully vague. It helps us change minds elegantly, effectively and rapidly. That's why we study the hypnotic patterns of Milton Erickson... to improve our influence, our credibility, and our ability to communicate powerfully in a hypnotically memorable way. Whenever you're using NLP to either BE PERSUASIVE or help someone ACHIEVE CHANGE ON THEIR OWN... You want to have an outcome in mind, right? As in, WHAT DO I WANT from this situation -- for myself, for that person (or persons), and for ALL of us? HOW CAN I STRUCTURE WHAT I'M DOING AS WIN-WIN? Just as in a double-bind where you wanna structure their choice as a win-win for themselves, regardless of their choice -- they end up with the positive outcome -- you can create a double-bind for you AND them -- so EVERYONE WINS! Right? Who doesn't believe that? |
| _Stile_ | I don't believe I don't believe that |
| Jonathan | OK you can stay, Stile ;) |
| Dan_26 | Would you say that's an absolute always (ie, ALWAYS have a win-win outcome in mind for all involved parties before doing this) |
| Wolfadom | you can belive it or not, its still takes you to the same conclusion... |
| _Stile_ | hmmm "improve-improve" ala SOM log ? |
| Jonathan | I'd say its like the Star Trek movies when Captain Kirk beat the "Kobiashi Maru" test... ;) He didn't believe in the no-win situation. But to be human -- you can always walk away with diminishing returns on your investment of time... |
| sabren | it's just a matter of being able to generate enough choices.. are you flexible enough to have win-win? and creative enough? and if you are, that's at least one win right there. :) |
| Jonathan | And do you have enough time Sabren ;) |
| sabren | true... or a quick enough strategy for finding the best opportunities. :) |
| Jonathan | In any case from a point of view of win-win -- we can think of our outcome from artfully vague communication and begin the process... of learning from other people's deep structure (using tools like the Meta-Model(tm) in a way that helps us begin to make a model of their values, strategies, thoughts, etc. And if we want to be persuasive, we can use language tools like the Milton Model to deliver information in (a) an artfully vague way and (b) in a way that MATCHES/PACES their deep structure and then LEADS it into new discoveries and awarness... Now. On chats I tend to go the conscious route so I don't have a bunch of zombies wondering what they got -- and I'm going to go through the Milton Model pretty consciously -- within each point/section we can play around with the language. So within each Milton Pattern I'm going to ENCOURAGE everyone to contribute examples, etc... |
| Stefan | But we'll get it unconsciously, dont worry. |
| Jonathan | ;) Stefan! And then I'll keep the pace moving as we move along. Now. As some of you may know... I spent some time in Architecture School at Cornell. And a FAMOUS ARchitect graduated from there YEARS ago -- some 30 years ago -- and about 10 years ago -- several of the top architects were named as top candidates for a MAJOR commission -- out in Los Angeles! (atop a mountaintop site). For the new J.Paul Getty museum. And this famous architect was known for building ONLY white Buildings. Richard Meier, in case anyone knows the name. Most people thought - as he proposed - that it was because he LOVED the play of light on white marble surfaces. In Architecture school, we all presupposed it was because he didn't understand ANYTHING about color. ;) So a running joke in the industry was when they awarded the commission (virtually UNLIMITED budget -- I mean, he razed the mountaintop and carved a CAMPUS into the site) ... the awarded the commission TO Richard Meier... and they told him... we want you to build it... but you can't build a white building. |
The formal Milton Model consists of the following: | |
| Jonathan | (1) The Inverse of the META MODEL(tm) ...And these additional Language Patterns: (2) PRESUPPOSITIONS (3) INDIRECT ELICITATION PATTERNS (4) PATTERNS IN METAPHOR |
(1) The Inverse of the Meta Model | |
| Jonathan | I won't be going over that here -- except to say -- check out the other chat on the chatlog pages -- which covers this... and instead of thinking about recognizing the deletions/distortions/generalizations... think about USING/CREATING them in specific ways. |
(2) PRESUPPOSITIONS | |
| Jonathan | As you were thinking about posting some comments which gave examples of presuppositions... I wonder whether each of you will post one, or two... |
| _Stile_ | as you notice the way the light reflects off your screen, you might wonder how much money you'll decide to send me tomorrow morning |
| Jonathan | Presuppositions are useful because they provide a sense of already knowing/believing something that may not yet be true. And sometimes this additional belief can help sway other people towards the presupposition (especially if they're undecided, right?) |
| sabren | it's possible, but more likely that we'll decide to post after someone paves the way |
| Jonathan | Presupposing I haven't already written you a check, Stile? One or the other of your shoulders will begin to feel more relaxed. |
| _Stile_ | that too :) I wonder which will go first |
| Jonathan | Didn't it? |
| sabren | i can never remember whether it's easier to generate presuppositions or to enjoy them... |
| maw | and as you are reading this, while wondering what maw will come up with, you probably already begin to realise that a major twist has already happened in the line before, that you now frantically begin to read. |
| Jonathan | After you've read this chat log twice again & again, I wonder if you'll be ready to see CATS at that point? OK -- lets get the lurkers to ask questions -- if what we've been demonstrating isn't yet obvious? |
| sabren | in any case, after you remeber i'm just presupposing, you'll be even more inclined to follow my advice.. :) |
| Jonathan | Any questions from the quiet brigade? hehhe Nice one, sabren |
| _Stile_ | hehe -- presupposing a quiet brigade exists there :) |
| Jonathan | OK if there aren't any questions -- |
| Howard | Can presupps just be supposed, or do they need to be called out as in your examples. |
| Jonathan | Pre-Suppositions typically are what you DO NOT HEAR. Lets jump back a bit. NLP makes a distinction between SURFACE STRUCTURE of LANGUAGE (everything you hear) and DEEP STRUCTURE (everything you DON'T hear). |
| Wolfadom | yah everone's presups were too obvious |
| Jonathan | Pre-Suppositions usually are the things that show up ONLY in the deep structure. |
| _Stile_ | presupposing odin knows something, and odin is a deity |
| Jonathan | So how about this: I'll make a couple of statements.... and YOU all attempt to identify the presuppositions in what I'm typing... |
| sabren | and that we don't know what he knows, stile |
| Jonathan | OK? |
| _Stile_ | and you don't know what he knows |
| sabren | and that we're not dieties.. :) |
| Wolfadom | If I say, I enjoyed the ball game. what am I presupping? that I WENT TO a ball game |
| _Stile_ | yeah :) |
| Jonathan | It's EASY to set up volunteer events where we can help others in need. |
| Stefan | And, as I imagine that image, of patterns pouring, in your mind. |
| Dan_26 | or that you saw a ballgame, or heard it, or experienced it in some manner |
| Jonathan | What are the PRESUPS in "It's EASY to set up volunteer events where we can help others in need." |
| sabren | well, we can help others in need. |
| Wolfadom | presup - you have set up volunteer events before |
| _Stile_ | there are others in need, we can help them, it's POSSIBLE to set up volunteer events |
| sabren | ... that you have some experience with it... |
| Wolfadom | that you WANT to help others in need; that other events might be more difficult to set up |
| sabren | that there are volunteer events where we can't help others in need... |
| Jonathan | That I have done other things that have been more difficult... (yes Wolf ;) |
| sabren | good call.. easy compared to what..? :) |
| Wolfadom | yay |
| Jonathan | Are we in need or are others in need? |
| Wolfadom | others |
| Jonathan | Are you sure? Not from the language structure. |
| _Stile_ | we may also be in need |
| Wolfadom | I'm confused; need explanation. |
| ShadRap | we can help our own kind... |
| Jonathan | where we can [.....] in need |
| sabren | we can help others in need.... we can help others (while) in need.... it would be a stretch i think.. |
| _Stile_ | we can help others in need = we may be in need, but not very strongly presupposed here |
| Jonathan | agreed. |
| sabren | oh! ah! no! |
| ShadRap | we're all in need... we could help everyone else in need too. |
| Wolfadom | I agree with stile |
| sabren | because if there are OTHERS in need, then others compared to what? answer: us. |
| Wolfadom | let's all help each other out, ok? |
| Jonathan | hehheh |
| _Stile_ | i like that idea :) |
| Jonathan | yes. Good job guys. |
| sabren | :) |
(2) PRESUPPOSITIONS in MORE DEPTH | |
| Jonathan | Examples of things to look for (HIGH LEVEL) (a) SubOrdinate Clauses of Time (b) Ordinal Numerals (c) Use of "OR" (d) Awareness Predicates (e) Adverbs and Adjectives (f) Change of time verbs and adverbs (g) Commentary Adjectives and Adverbs Questions about the above? |
| Wolfadom | i wonder if you can give us some examples... |
| _Stile_ | double whammy :) |
| Jonathan | (you'd learn how to use the above elegantly in a training, of course, and I do want to cover everything so lets keep it brief here. Before you've integrated all this at a behavioral level in a way that makes it so that afterwards you've begun to enjoy these skills TWICE as much as now... I want to know what you'll have done to cause that to have that JUST happened, didn't it? |
| sabren | i have a question about that long sentence you just made. |
| Wolfadom | yah its a good example of some stuff ... lets pick at it! Before you've integrated all this PRESUP you will integrate all of this |
| sabren | i know how i'd answer this... but i'm curious about other people... do you think about whether or not what you're saying makes any sense? or do you let them worry about it? or are there other possiblities? |
| _Stile_ | I'm shutting down consciously and takes the whole thing in... too much for conscious effort at 11:30 at night |
| Jonathan | buy buy buy -- oops sorry -- I see that unconscious thing and that Infomercial mode takes over |
| _Stile_ | sabren, when i'm in trance i say things like that to myself... and i'm trancy now... but when i write hypnotic scripts and stuff i mostly make sense |
| Wolfadom | HAHA |
| sabren | i guess my question is do you try to have a normal sounding conversation, or do you just go for the gold with a long statement like that? I suppose it doesn't really matter, as long as you get the results you want... and most people would stop hearing it anyway, and just let it sink in. |
| _Stile_ | my guess is if they're in an altered state, you go for that and when they say "what?" you induce amnesia |
| Wolfadom | i think tomorrow I'm going to have a completely vague conversation w/ someone just for the fun of it |
| Jonathan | I do both, sabren. complex syntax. Bandler STRONGLY recommends getting elegant with it. |
| sabren | elegant with complexity? |
| Wolfadom | complex syntax = confusing right? |
| Jonathan | DEFINITELY. |
| _Stile_ | where can i find more on it? |
| Wolfadom | kewlness |
| Jonathan | ANY of the Bandler books. Alright. |
| _Stile_ | time for a change is good? |
| Jonathan | example: I'm wondering just how long it might take for you to begin the process of determining what it is inside of comfort that can allow yourself to begin to relax even more than you already haven't learned YET to find relaxation INSIDE of comfort... |
| Wolfadom | i know this guy at work who can just keep talking forever. He always bores people to death and gets them into trances. I doubt he (conciously) knows how powerful his natural skill is. |
| sabren | yeah.. :) order it through amazon through your friendly neighborhood NLP site.. :) |
| Howard | I'm not sure if I understand what I think you mean, but if you mean what I think you might want to help me understand your meaning. |
| _Stile_ | hehehe sabren :) |
| Dan_26 | i've been on dates with women like that wolf ;) |
| Wolfadom | there are things you know and there are things you don't know... and then there are the things you know you know and the things you don't know you know, you know? |
| Jonathan | and as that process begins to take over and under the conscious awareness of what it is you haven't begun to process more and more and more still elegantly more than before.... you've already done it, haven't you.... found new ways to integrate your learnings and powerful skills to persuade and influence... with responsibility and ownership of the consequences and acceleration of the WIN-WIN elements and mentality... |
| sabren | oh that's another great conversational postulate thing.. it's not yes or no.... but: how long does it take to do XyZ? What's it like when you XYZ? they have to XYZ to answer! |
| Dan_26 | have you ever had the response: "Huh?" |
| Howard | Oh, James Joyce! |
| Jonathan | Thats the point, Dan.... |
| Dan_26 | ;) |
| Wolfadom | I really like the complex syntax idea Jon... that's a gem for me tonight! |
| sabren | you can check that you've got the nonverbal response you want, and then toss something simple and direct to the conscious mind |
| Jonathan | OK... |
| Dan_26 | is it purposefully structured to induce confusion or is that just one possible anticipated response? |
(3) INDIRECT ELICITATION PATTERNS | |
| Jonathan | (3-A) - Embedded Commands (3-B) - Analogue Marking (or Analog Marking) (3-C) - Embedded Questions! (3-D) - Negative Commands (3-E) - Conversational Postulates jump in folks -- its playtime! |
| Jonathan | (3-A) - Embedded Commands |
| _Stile_ | now if you were to begin to remember an experience in your past, when you could just find yourself so relaxed |
| Stefan | You, like me, probably realize that it's fun to write embedded commands. |
| Howard | As you notice my return, you may be curious why I left! |
| sabren | my mom was a master at that... "michal, you can clean your room!" |
| Wolfadom | Do you think you can ENJOY this conversation emensely, or just HAVE A GREAT TIME chatting here? |
| _Stile_ | haha stefan :P |
| Jonathan | Moving back to Embedded Commands - & Indirect Elicitation Patterns |
| _Stile_ | that threw me in for a loop :) |
| Jonathan | When you GO INSIDE YOUR MIND and IDENTIFY SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE to FEEL GOOD NOW about (using command-tone-down for all the caps) any other good examples? |
| Wolfadom | This is how I do it on IRC ====> When you Go Inside Your Mind and Identify Something you'd like to Feel Good Now about using spaces and only first letter caps |
| Jonathan | cool |
| Wolfadom | its less like shouting |
| Jonathan | even that can be obvious ;) |
| _Stile_ | if you were to NOTICE YOUR BREATHING GETTING HEAVIER, and allow YOUR UNCONSCIOUS to FIND SOMETHING OF IMPORTANCE in your life |
| Jonathan | but yes -- it works |
| Howard | When you FEEL TIRED, you may want to GO TO BED (to my daughter) |
| _Stile_ | that's how i do it too but w/o the caps, wolf |
| Jonathan | sure Stile. |
| Jonathan | (3-B) - Analogue Marking (or Analog Marking) |
| Jonathan | Because you know how to OPEN up new possibilities just by looking UP at images you can create in front of you in a way that just helps YOUR unconscious to develop new skills to enhance your MIND |
| sabren | what would be some embedded commands that didn't use Analogue Marking (or Analog Marking), though? |
| Jonathan | That didn't? I think of Analogue Marking (or Analog Marking) as being anything that is marked out with a nod, a tonality, a gesture, etc... and the message is created through the repeated anchor |
| _Stile_ | why not all of the above? |
| sabren | yes... that didn't mark out a particular part of the sentence.. |
| Jonathan | OPEN UP YOUR MIND was marked out from the above sentence, right? |
| sabren | mmm... i get it.. that distinction works a bit better than the one i had.. :) |
| _Stile_ | yup. OPEN UP YOUR MIND |
| sabren | Have you ever read Lewis Carroll? |
| Jonathan | How many people here -- have NOT read the standard example of the above in NLP books? (y= haven't seen it, n = seen it) |
| sabren | I remember reading how he used to embed messages in his texts. The trick was to put a bit of the message on each line. |
| ShadRap, _Stile_ | n |
| Jonathan | Who DOES NOT know the standard example? |
| sabren | He added in other words to pad it.. |
| Jonathan | yes |
| sabren | Every first word was part of the message. Really. |
| Wolfadom | perhaps if u jog my memory Jon |
| Jonathan | OK |
| sabren | Every one.. or at least the first letters... interesting, huh? |
| Howard | I've read the books, but I guess I didn't get the example. |
| sabren | :) |
| Jonathan | I think you really have to HAND it to these guys that started NLP from SCRATCH, it could be really HANDY and UPLIFTING, TO FACE the possibilities and the unknown -- they really haven't begun to SCRATCH the surface of what can be done -- and nobody NOSE just whats going to happen NEXT |
| _Stile_ | "Here" sabren. Eh tosha? |
| Jonathan | Now...(!) |
| Tosha1 | Eh stile? |
| _Stile_ | hahahaha |
| sabren | Stile ... go back a bit.. :) |
| Wolfadom | I hate that example. |
| Jonathan | Its over-used. |
| Wolfadom | I get all itchy. |
| _Stile_ | Ohhh, "hi there." |
| Jonathan | (3-C) - Embedded Questions! |
| sabren | It's marked out visually, but i wonder if it's too subtle to notice.. |
| _Stile_ | I should re-read Charlotte's Web (I think he wrote it?) |
| sabren | No, that was T.H. White, I think. |
| _Stile_ | Ohhh K. |
| sabren | I wonder what that means, jonathan |
| Jonathan | I'm wondering if you know any examples of Embedded Questions? (hint: that's an example). |
| sabren | Stile -> Alice in Wonderland |
| _Stile_ | Ahhh K. |
| Jonathan | I'm wondering if you know any examples of Embedded Questions. (hint: that's an example). |
| _Stile_ | No, Jonathan, I used it only unconsciously up to now, to plug in embedded commands. |
| Dan_26 | I'm not sure who first thought of that one. (hint: Another example!) |
| sabren | I never did find out who invented embedded questions. (hint: yet another example). |
| Wolfadom | oh here's a good embedded command.... Could you hand me that glass? A very common type of natural embedded command -- is the polite question to do something. |
| ShadRap | is that table to heavy to move over here? |
| sabren | wolf, could you hand it to me.... after you've slipped into a trance? |
| Wolfadom | hehe |
| Dan_26 | how about an uncommon unnatural embedded command wolf? (back to presup's :) |
| _Stile_ | hehehe |
| Jonathan | ahhh |
| sabren | can you embed one question inside another? |
| Wolfadom | i don't get the embedded question |
| _Stile_ | i wonder if you could tell me how that could be done. |
| Jonathan | commands we know -- but I'm curious if you know what its like to discover how can one embed questions inside others. |
| Wolfadom | can u give an overt example? |
| Jonathan | ;) just did |
| Wolfadom | i know u did, but I don't get it; i sense you did, but don't recognize it |
| Dan_26 | that glass, i'm not sure where it came from, could you hand it to me? |
| Jonathan | I'm curious if you know what its like to discover.... |
| Jonathan | how can one embed questions inside others. |
| _Stile_ | how can one embed questions inside others... i'm curious if you know what it's like to X (previously stated) |
| sabren | well, if you ask someone, "do you like fish?" that's one question.. but you could pressuppose it in another question: "have you ever gone with bob to eat fish?" |
| Virgin | if you were to ask yourself what is it like to do that what would your answer be? |
| sabren | one point is to avoid prying. there may be others... |
| Virgin | Well, if you were to ask me if I would enjoy that would you hope I would say yes? |
| Jonathan | Sabren has pointed out that using embedded questions can be a softener, of sorts.. a way of getting at information through a backdoor. |
| _Stile_ | like "if i were to ask you... what would your answer be?" |
| sabren | in DHE, you could say "there may be other solutions... HMMMMM" and that opens up the questioning / curiosity state in the listener.. |
| Jonathan | The responses you get are often the same ones you would get with a direct question -- but without the same level of response to invasiveness. |
| _Stile_ | the "HMMM" going up in tonality? |
| Wolfadom | ok i wonder would you would enjoy giving me another example of an embedded question. |
| sabren | well, that's a quote pattern.... a more advanced version of what i was thinking of.. |
| _Stile_ | or up-down? |
| Jonathan | ;) |
| sabren | "HMMMM.. I wonder." that kinda hmmm... :) |
| Wolfadom | I wonder if it would it be possible for anyone here to give me another example of an embedded question. |
| sabren | wolfdom, yes i would. |
| _Stile_ | ok got it =) bandler uses too many "hmmmm's" -- hehehe |
| sabren | but you don't need the hmmms... it's just a sound.. that's what vowels are for. :) replace it with "and" and move on to the next thing.. but i wonder if we're getting off track. |
| _Stile_ | yeah he's got the "aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh" -- wow i like that 'and' |
| Jonathan | (3-D) - Negative Commands |
| Dan_26 | don't do this! |
| Jonathan | Don't think of SEX (grin) |
| _Stile_ | you don't have to pay attention right now (mmmmm sex!) |
| sabren | you don't really want to talk about this, do you jonathan? |
| Wolfadom | don't think of sax, with me now... |
| sabren | most importantly, don't say "huh?" until you've gone all the way into a deep trance. |
| Dan_26 | not now, and don't allow those thoughts to continue to engulf your consciousness |
| _Stile_ | of course you can't trust me immediately... but if you could... feel that sense of connection growing within you... |
| Wolfadom | asphincter says "what?" |
| sabren | I like that one, stile... you can't really use that, though.. {grin!} |
| _Stile_ | I have and it worked, sabren! I like this one, used by parents: |
| sabren | oh. i guess i was wrong. :) |
| _Stile_ | now son, i don't want you to get all excited about this. or the one used by kids... mom, don't get mad at me :) |
| Dan_26 | don't take this the wrong way |
| Jonathan | ok you guys know that one ;) |
| Jonathan | (3-E) - CONVERSATIONAL POSTULATES |
| Wolfadom | you don't have to think about enjoying this product throughouly to realize how helpful it will be. |
| sabren | i don't want you to really enjoy yourself, but... |
| Jonathan | Now -- these are like a SUBSET of embedded questions -- designed to get YES/NO answers, but which usually elicit OTHER responses. As in, I'm wondering if you can CLOSE THE WINDOW? |
| Tosha1 | do you have the time? |
| sabren | Can you tell us more about it? |
| _Stile_ | hmmm ok i see the difference betw. this and embedded questions |
| Wolfadom | can you pass the salt? |
| ShadRap | hello... Is 'so-n-so' there?.... |
| sabren | one is a statement that produces the answer to a question, the other is a question that produces the answer to a command. |
| Stefan | No, it's too far away, for me. |
| Jonathan | Can you just CALM DOWN? ;) |
| Wolfadom | sabren its for eliciting a behavior, not a verbal answer |
| Jonathan | Behavior AND a verbal answer. Example: |
| sabren | yeah... behavior is the answer to a command... you phrased it more elegantly. :) |
| Stefan | Would "And why haven't you made your bet yet?" qualify in this category? made your bed. |
| Jonathan | Do you KNOW what time it is? |
| sabren | "Yes, it's 11:20" (while looking at watch) |
| Jonathan | Exactly. |
| Wolfadom | and jonathan even more so... elegantly :) |
| Jonathan | The alternative answer may be verbal, may be nonverbal but is different than the one most heavily implied linguistically. OK -- we're done with the INDIRECT ELICITATION PATTERNS... lesseee here |
| sabren | Stefan, because i just don't know if it's woth the risk... (why ask why, if you don't want them to think of reasons?) they'll think you're just enthusiastic and not very good at making a point.. :) or perhaps they'll be too tranced to notice.. |
| _Stile_ | it's cramming in embedded commands like mad |
MORE INDIRECT ELICITATION PATTERNS | |
| Jonathan | (a) Phonological Ambiguity (b) Syntactic Ambiguity (c) Scope Ambiguity (d) Punctuation Ambiguity These are best learned by just writing out 100 of each of these. Get your best definitions and examples of these in Persuasion Engineering (and elsewhere) |
(4) PATTERNS IN METAPHOR (a) Selectional Restriction Violations (b) Quotes | |
| _Stile_ | yes!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| sabren | my dog told me the other day, "you're really silly" |
| Jonathan | The trees are happy we're not printing this out tonight |
| _Stile_ | the rock felt very bad, and decided to do something about it |
| Jonathan | I was talking to R.Bandler last month, and he said, "SLEEP!" |
| _Stile_ | and it said to itself, "You really need to get out more often" |
| Dan_26 | don't do that, i'm tired ;) |
| _Stile_ | me too |
| Tosha1 | I'm falling of the chair ... |
| sabren | that's funny... someone told me the other day that his carpet had just made a powerful change... |
| Wolfadom | IF your best friend told you, "this is the best product i've ever seen" would you want to know more about it or would you just ask? |
| Jonathan | Get that man away from drugs, sabren. Depends on how he smelled, Wolf |
| sabren | haha .. :) |
| Howard | My mood ring told me "You're feeling great today" |
| Wolfadom | through his nose |
| Jonathan | hah! |
| _Stile_ | hehehe |
| sabren | These are all great examples of Milton Model patterns, but what would be some more practical ones? |
| Dan_26 | can i request more examples of (a)? :) |
| Jonathan | That's a CRAZY idea. |
| _Stile_ | my desk drawers decided not to open today; her hair doesn't seem to like her |
| Dan_26 | doesn't seem to be clicking in right now |
| Stefan | I don't like the attitude of her hairstyle. |
| sabren | it seems that (a) is a lot like (b) but quoting in a frame where it's not appropriate... |
| Wolfadom | (a) The grass likes to be watered |
| sabren | or rather not sensical |
| Howard | my bed is calling me |
| sabren | information wants to be free |
| Dan_26 | i'll brush up, that's a structure i'm not intimate with yet (did I just use it? :) |
| _Stile_ | that structure hasn't made its way to my core yet? |
| Dan_26 | ah, there was the click ;) |
| sabren | "you know, this all reminds me of a toy i had when i was a kid.. no matter how i played with it, it just didn't have any fun.." |
| _Stile_ | haha |
| Wolfadom | Milton would use selectional restriction violations to talk about personal transformation in a way that allowed the patient's subconcious to know that he was in fact talking about the patient and not the "flower" or whatever, but that was easier to get past the patient's concious filtering. He would talk about, for example, maybe a flower that liked to grow |
| sabren | but what about in day-to-day? |
| Dan_26 | personification seems to like being under that area |
| sabren | nontherapuetic conversations? |
| Jonathan | What's your outcome? |
| Stefan | There was some soap commercial or something earlier "And I felt that my skin really told me, that's good, continue with that soap X". |
| _Stile_ | how bout metaphors that are not isomorphic stories? Trance-Formations briefly mentions that there's the kind that Therapeutic Metaphors talk about, and then there's the non-isomorphic type |
| Jonathan | To explore each Milton Model patterns usage in normal conversations? |
| sabren | well, what would be an outcome for which that might be a useful tool, besides therapy? (that's my outcome, jonathan..) |
| Jonathan | Asking or talking about selectional restriction violations AUTOMATICALLY causes dissociation. Take that to the next step yourself.... |
| _Stile_ | wow -- the rock now feels really special, it gets to trance us all |
| sabren | hey.. that makes sense.. because it's not the content of what you're thinking about, but the process... so as long as you run the process, it doesn't matter what the content is... |
| Jonathan | One simple induction (from Milton's video with Monde & Nick) is to grab someone's hand, lift it up in front of their face, and say, I'd like to show your hand, something about your face. |
| sabren | because you can anchor it, or otherwise associate it to the situation you're working with... |
| _Stile_ | wow! |
| Dan_26 | awesome, just put myself in trance with that one |
| _Stile_ | ya |
| Wolfadom | irc is transing |
| Dan_26 | than again, i'm half asleep |
| sabren | interesting induction.. :) |
| _Stile_ | i'm in trance 24/7 |
| Jonathan | I think the computer monitor would laugh if you knew what your face looks like to it, with all that light flickering on your face |
| _Stile_ | hahaha i just used that on dalnet, jonathan! |
| Jonathan | Well, I'd like to close this out for tonight and wrap things up here.... |
| Dan_26 | great session again, jonathan |
| sabren | you start doing stuff like selectional restriction violations.. and people start calling you whimsical.. .or enchanting.. hmm.. :) |
| Jonathan | We've covered ALL the language patterns -- some at very high/quick level and some with some really amazing examples -- 3 CHEERS to ALL OF YOU for your contributions, everyone... |
| ShadRap | Thanks a lot, Jonathan... enjoyed it.. |
| Jonathan | For those who may still be undecided -- |
| sabren | yeah, this was a lot of fun! :) |
| Wolfadom | kewl ... and it was just getting REAL FUN!!! |
| Jonathan | Next Friday is the beginning of my 13-day Practitioner Certification course... |
| _Stile_ | i wish i could come! :P |
| Jonathan | and I've got several weekend events including the May 8-10 Los Angeles Personal Enhancement Weekend... ...And May 29-31 is my 1st KNOWLEDGE ENGINEERING & NLP weekend -- in Tampa! So keep these in mind... |
| Tosha1 | I thought only Bandler can certify Practitioners and Trainers.... |
| Jonathan | Bandler licenses his trainers to train & recommend for certification pracs and master pracs. In the Society of NLP, only Richard Bandler can train & license TRAINERS of NLP. If you took a course with me -- and you showed behavioral understanding of the skills by the end -- you'd get a Prac license with my sig on it and Bandler's sig on it. |
| Dan_26 | Bandler signs all S-NLP prac cert's jonathan? (setting that completely aside :) |
| Jonathan | To my understanding, Yes, Dan. Gnight everyone! |
IRC CHAT OVER! | |
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Inbox Insights
- Knowledge Engineering (& Belief Craft) have evolved, into GeniusMapping™
- As of September 2020, we're in the process of moving from Tampa, Florida, to the Youngstown Ohio area. Currently, during the Coronavirus era, we're mostly focusing on Zoom-based Coaching, and aligning resources to run online courses.
- How "Civil Engineering" totally reframes the word "Stress," redefines the phrase "Stress Management," and leads us to embrace Stress!
- Many NLP Practitioners are more sloppy with their thinking patterns, than they'd like to admit, or... would even notice.
- Watch NLP Co-Founder Richard Bandler use NLP to eliminate Michael Strahan's phobic response to snakes -- in minutes (with Kelly Ripa bringing over a BIG snake at the end to test Michael's response). Spoiler alert: It worked ridiculously well.
- No matter what skill you want to learn, no matter what fears or concerns or hesitation you may have, there are and will always be a wide range of approaches, to learning that skill. It's important to keep that in mind when making learning choices.
- Many more famous people have been trained in Ericksonian (indirect) Hypnosis and NLP than you might guess. There are certainly far more who have strong interests here than have publically admitted so.
- On January 1, 2015, Jonathan Altfeld and 20 other co-authors released a digital book entitled "Creating Business Growth."
- What are the Four Stages of Learning?
- Mark HenryCertified Hypnotherapist, Baton Rouge, LABought Video : “Building Hypnotic Rapport”
Jonathan's skill builders DVDs are incredible. Learn about building hypnotic rapport by pacing and leading others breathing patterns. I synchronized my breathing with several attractive women at coffee shops and malls in the last month. Each turned their bodies toward me while I sat across a room. They gazed at me for several seconds. I felt that I connected with them on an unconscious level. I later spoke with them and were amazed at their friendliness to a complete stranger.
2005 - Bob DillonSeminar Leader, VermontAttended Course : Speaking Ingeniously
No matter where you perceive your skill level, there is always more. Jonathan not only cuts diamonds, he polishes them, and adds more facets."
2002 - Ted VanderNootCognitrix, London, UKAttended Course : Belief Craft MP3 Set
"Your presentation of AI & Knowledge Engineering & how computer software systems can learn & decide was quite interesting. But using these models to then explore modelling in the NLP context was mind-blowing! It was really cool how well we were tracking beliefs by only the second day. [...] Not only could we track beliefs & language patterns "on the fly" but we could unravel their interconnections & their interactions conversationally. I thoroughly recommend your course to anyone who wants to improve their skills at tracking language patterns & modelling."
http://www.cognitrix.com/2005 - Elaine ChristakosFinancial Coach, Kelowna, BCAttended Course : Linguistic Wizardry
Jonathan is a superb trainer and communicator. I am thrilled to have participated in his recent Seattle Linguistic Wizardry workshop. Jonathan has a way of transferring knowledge with such ease as to include everyone - regardless of prior training or NLP experience. I was in awe watching how Jonathan managed to reach everyone in a different way - while constantly keeping the entire group engaged. I've now got a renewed excitement for practicing my NLP skills, and am more eager than ever to keep it working for me. Although I thought my coaching calls were great prior to attending LW, soon after my training - I found my calls to be more fluid and effective. The words seemed to flow much easier and my use of embedded commands are more natural and useful. I also am better able to focus my attention on understanding the style of my clients patterns - without losing focus on the content of what I'm teaching. It has all been such a natural process that I'm eager to see where it will be most effective next.
2007 - G.A.Sydney, AustraliaBought Audio : Finding Your Irresistible Voice
After reviewing your CDs I started realising how applicable it was in creating a new improved voice range. I realised that with very little effort people were listening attentively to me, even in crowded places and in places where machinery is constantly running. My workmates noticed it too, dropping comments as to how 'agreeable' it was to listen to my opinions, and how much more rapport was noticeable! My new girlfriend also refers to my voice as to one of my good qualities, which -- in combination with my other NLP techniques -- makes for my voice a seductive weapon of choice. I am recommending it to my friends. Thanks!
2004 - Chris ArellanoNorth CarolinaAttended Course : NLP Practitioner Training
Through this experience, I've gathered many things that I did not have before. I am able to see things, and see them from new perspectives. I have learned and am still learning how to improve both myself as well as those with whom I come in contact. Things I have just described are somewhat vague in description yet very profound to me. I owe much of this trance-formation to Jon for providing the tools and facilitating the use of these new tools in a positive direction. Thank you.
1998 - Chris FialaMarketing Consultant, Clearwater, FLAttended Course : Speaking Ingeniously
"I very much enjoyed your seminar. Having more comfort when I talk with people makes the rapport deeper. Even though my demo is only 90 seconds, I hold longer eye contact with more potential customers, building a sense of connection. Result? Sales of my juicer product increased 30%." -
- Andrew JoyPrincipal French Horn, Cologne Radio Orchestra, Cologne, GermanyBought Audio : Finding Your Irresistible Voice
Your CDs arrived safe and sound. I've listened to the first two and worked on the exercises. I'm a 55 year young, professional principal french horn player and have been working in a top German symphony orchestra for the past 30 years. I listened to the bonus telephone interview today. I am blown away. The results, applying your voice exercises to my playing (and to my students) are phenomenal. Resonance plays a huge role in performing on a brass instrument and very few poeple understand much about it. I've picked up useful and practical information, from singers and voice coaches, that I've been able to adapt to brass playing. Explaining resonance is now easy using your nose, mouth, throat etc, approach. The killer though, is using double resonance. I have free at present and don't have to perform in the orchestra (and the hall) until the beginning of Febuary. However, I am itching to hear how my changed sound is in our hall. It has to be amazing. Your material has added wonderfully valuable understandings to my comprehension of what constitutes excellent quality brass player and has beautifully simplified my means of effectively communicating it to my students. There has been a lot of belly laughter, stunned ears and broad smiles in my teaching studio this week. I'm teaching a course to amateur wind and brass players next year and am looking forward to applying your teachings to this particular situation for the benefit of the people attending. Thanks a million. This is one of the few times in my life where I've been gladly reeling and with a huge smile on my face.
http://www.andrewjoy.com2007 - Maureen StevensonCafe Manager, Nottingham, UKAttended Course : Belief Craft MP3 Set
"As a person who has never attended any NLP or KE Sessions before, I have found the whole experience useful to me and feel that I am going away with a wealth of knowledge I believe will guide me through many areas of my life. I am excited about attending more trainings in the future."
2005 - Howard WolfMiami, FLAttended Course : Persuasion Summit
PTPS was absolutely the best training in persuasion I've ever experienced. Chris' skills in NLP and persuasion are a compilation of the best of Richard Bandler, Kenrick Cleveland, & Michael Hall, all combined. Chris has evolved these techniques, enhanced them, and repackaged persuasion for the new millenium. Chris has tested his techniques thousands of times through the thousands of telemarketers he's managed over the years. This seminar will go down in the annuls of NLP history.
2001