Recently, on social media, an NLP Practitioner asked a question about a client who reported having a phobia, and with whom he used the NLP Fast Phobia Cure, which may have partly worked, but it came back a few days later?
NLP and Emotional State Changes - NLP Chat Transcript
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IRC Chat Log, March 5, 1998
STATE CHANGES | |
| Jonathan | Hi folks! Nice of you to join me here in the channel for another chat... this one should be a ton of fun! I wanted to talk a bit about what it means to have NLP skills for state changing... and be able to apply them both internally with yourselves, and with other people! I mean, now, it seems to me that when I was first getting into NLP that one of the primary reasons was to be able to have more self-control in situations that in my past, would have really upset or annoyed me. And, to be able to recognize in GREAT situations, that I was in less than a GREAT state, so as to change my state and maximize the positive benefits of my present circumstances! But once you start to use the NLP Techniques that are out there, both in books and online, as well as taught by trainers, etc... The first thing that usually happens is, you learn how to do it with your own behavior.... and then you start running out of things you want to consciously address yourself!!! So you open up your eyes and ears and you start looking around and listening more to what's happening all around you.... and what do you find??? LOTS of people with lots of difficulty changing their OWN states! So then its like you reach a threshold where you discover that not only can you adjust your own state, but you begin the process of learning all the ways in which you can influence other people's states. Now I remember when I started doing this... I thought COOL, I can influence other people's states... and then it hit me like a ton of bricks... I'd been doing it all along... a LOT less effectively and intentionally than I'd have liked. |
| SunDog | And in fact, at first you're even less effective because you're using NLP (inelegantly), or at least, I was. |
| Jonathan | Now I could have stared at what was wrong indefinitely and gotten annoyed about it... (well OK I admit I did for a little while, but not long) but instead within a short time I was already looking to begin to change my own behavior and gain mastery over how I was adjusting other people's states! Yes SunDog! |
| SunDog | So you go back to: Start with what you know and use NLP to amplify it, not replace it! |
| metaclone | Good point. |
| Jonathan | OOoooooh, good description, SunDog! So this is about one thing! Will everyone here recognize that they have the power to control their own state!? If you're not sure, and don't have ample evidence... lets jump back a little bit. Every state you've EVER been in is now a memorized, learned state! Your body knows how to go back into that state, but, it may just not yet have conscious triggers, or anchors (as NLPers say), to access that state. |
| grazzhppr, SunDog, mikw | yes |
| Jonathan | To new NLP,students, this is something anyone at any level can do! One of the typical ways NLPers go back into learned/memorized states is if they KNOW an anchor... they just fire it. But that's not most people. One of the typical ways NLPers go back into states they don't have anchors for... and the technique is the same whether you know NLP or not... is the classic "remember a time when you [did / felt / saw ] X " where X was a situation in which they were in a certain state. Like, "Remember a time when you felt reallllly happy! And in any order in which the memory comes back, see what you saw then, hear what you heard then, and feel what you felt then!" Now. Go ahead! Remember a time when you felt SO happy, your whole spine lit up with the electricity and pleasure of it all! |
| Jonathan | What you think, this is a lecture? I don't have all night... ya know!!! Pick a really happy memory! |
| SunDog | Oh. Yes!! |
| metaclone | Mostly, you just need a belief! |
| Jonathan | Meta -- why not expand upon that! While we're all remembering our hap hap happy times ;) And while Meta is describing... everyone else... if you see pictures... MAKE 'em BIGGER! |
| mikw | ummmmmmm... ahhhhhh.. *feel good* |
| metaclone | Often the belief in itself that you can change state -- is enough to blow the doors open and |
| SunDog | (and put some music to it) |
| Jonathan | Yeah, yeah... MUSIC! |
| metaclone | yeah take that belief, move it out and watch it expand in size, now zooom it close |
| Jonathan | Make those happy pictures brighter and see if the happy feelings don't just DOUBLE those feelings! |
| SunDog | Good point Metaclone! Also, you can stomp the state with this idea that you never had a happy time. |
| metaclone | but ummm yeah the belief u can change states is often enuf, and to mismatch this... sometimes I cant change state - to the one I want - no matter what |
| Jonathan | metaclone -- I'll go along with that in a big way... but to GET the belief with new folks who don't have that belief, I can either set up a distance-based swish, or, use Sleight of Mouth, or... I can simply lead through the above examples. |
| SunDog | with mismatcher, I use "How do you know you aren't having it now? What's missing?" and work up piecewise |
| Jonathan | Sure, SunDog... that's a really good example! |
| metaclone | sure but then i'd look at other models like MBTI, eneagram etc which explain energy levels |
| Jonathan | Ooooh glad you're here metaclone -- we get some other interesting viewpoints to cover! |
| SunDog | ? does mbti explain energy levels |
| metaclone | I think so - who knows the model ? |
| SunDog | not me, obviously |
| Jonathan | We've just opened up the frame of believing people can change states just by remembering previous times where we KNEW we were in that state before; I do -- but I'll let you lead that one! |
| SunDog | or must have been |
| metaclone | we can get back to it later... it'll loop around |
| SunDog | cached |
| Jonathan | OK! |
| Sandworm | Well, states change all the time, anyway. The notion that there is some kind of steady, stable "SELF" is pretty silly. |
| metaclone | ummm yeah you can remember a time, act as if, shift physiology but at the end of the day we're talking recoding submodalities. |
| Jonathan | All day long, true... |
| metaclone | submodalities - ie pictures, feeling, sounds |
| grazzhppr | thx |
| Sandworm | I daresay from an Eastern perspective, the challenge is to MAINTAIN a state for more than 5 seconds without distractions shifting it into something else... |
| SunDog | Exactly, the state is what's NOT changing, and that changes |
| Jonathan | Its silly to people versed in the process. You know as well as I how stuck people can be when they show up at your/my seminars! They haven't recognized a state-change in the last 5 years sometimes. |
| metaclone | so then I got this is about giving them a belief |
| Jonathan | Meanwhile we can see the shifts readily (even though the physiology may not change much). |
| Sandworm | I think Jon just put his finger on it...RECOGNIZING and monitoring your states is a new skill to lots of people.... |
| SunDog | And recognizing that they have a choice is NOT obvious |
| Sandworm | This is something Bandler said at the Meta-Master: you have to be able to notice something before you can control or change it. |
| Jonathan | Agreed -- and that does follow up comments you made some time ago -- along similar lines. So let me recap here and regroup everyone. |
| metaclone | so its like get conscious |
| Dan_26 | kind of like wine tasting; it's all wine in one sense, but there are thousand of nuances that make each taste unique |
| Sandworm | You're also banging against an entire culture that says control isn't possible or desirable... ...I will now shut up. |
| Jonathan | We started in with talking about the purpose of knowing how to change states in yourself, because you go first! Once you know you can change your own state you can begin to recognize that you've been adjusting other people's states already, though perhaps in less than effective ways thus far. |
| SunDog | Intentionally or not |
| Jonathan | And then you can get a handle on that too and begin to turn it around so that you can adjust other people's states more positively! Intentionally! |
| SunDog | Now that you realize it. |
| metaclone | You mean I do hypnosis and don't know it? |
| Jonathan | Or not adjust them at all - because you'll know how to NOT influence people more effectively! Of course, Metaclone, under the assumption that EVERYTHING is hypnosis (perhaps very ineffective hypnosis). "People are hypnosis machines." |
| SunDog | I haven't figured out how to interact without influencing! |
| Jonathan | If you walk up to someone, keep your mouth closed, but Smile really widely. If they smile back, that's a hypnotic reaction. Isn't it? So as to interaction without influence, have you ever been SO neutral, so completely bland, that you just blended in and disappeared completely even in a public place? I know kids who know how to do that. Can you do that? |
| SunDog | I can disappear, yes. |
| metaclone | Invisibility. |
| Jonathan | And you can still interact when you do that, right? |
| SunDog | Ummm, interact & remain invisible - how so please? |
| metaclone | Ummm OK, so what if I know these tricks, have a belief and just can't shift into the state I want? |
| Jonathan | *I* did that from time to time unintentionally before I started studying NLP! I was missing a big kinesthetic piece of the puzzle! Metaclone -- for the group -- are you new to NLP? |
| Dan_26 | I'm curious Jonathan, how did you discover that kino piece |
| Sandworm | Jon..can I jump in here a sec and ask Meta a question? |
| Jonathan | Sure! BTW I thinks this is a GREAT chat topic & a great group! |
| Sandworm | Meta...my thought is this: if you "want" a state it means that you have a representation at SOME level, however detailed or vague, of what that state would be like to have, correct? |
| SunDog | so... in order to remain invisible, I must not interact (i think). if I interact, I might THINK i'm invisible |
| Sandworm | Anyway, my question is: is it that he can't reach the state, or is it that he just hasn't formed an adequate enough representation of what the state would be like such that he has something vivid enough to aim at? In other words...the skill deficit may NOT be in shifting into the state....but in sufficiently designing it in the first place.... |
| SunDog | The latter, back to "How do you know you don't have it yet? What's missing? What needs to be removed?" |
| Sandworm | The shifting might be EASY provided he has an adequate and vivid enough representation.... |
| Jonathan | Probably more along the lines of what you describe, Ross... |
| DocSpiff | umm there is an important point here |
| Sandworm | In fact....just vividly designing it/representing it may cause him to enter it! |
| metaclone | sorry lemme see |
| Dan_26 | what if you have the state well represented but something prevents you from accessing it at desired times? (respond when appropriate) |
| Jonathan | missing the anchor into a powerful SET of sensory info strong enuf to bring back intense kinesthetics that he can lock in |
| Sandworm | Point being...watch how folks describe the problem..they aren't always or even usually accurate or correct and you might wind up chasing shadows/. |
| Jonathan | Dan -- |
| DocSpiff | in order to notice hes not reaching a particular state, he has to enter that state, even if for the briefest of moments |
| metaclone | ross: I'd call it the human condition, and look at things like MBTI inferior fuction |
| DocSpiff | and I never met a clown I couldn't hypnotize!! |
| Jonathan | (ross is right -- if you're trying to help someone elicit a state -- there are tricks to knowing what the wild goose chases are like) |
| metaclone | which says sure, someone who is mega introvert can do extraversion |
| Sandworm | That's an interesting belief..I think metaclone just gave us some HIGH level info on his beliefs about the world... |
| metaclone | but only for so long regardless of tricks with submodalities; (Sandworm): I just referenced a model |
| Jonathan | Once you have a powerful state that you KNOW you've been in, you'd want to install an anchor or a set of anchors into the state... |
| Sandworm | Hmmm....meta...(I smell blood in the water, folks!) |
| metaclone | hehe |
| Jonathan | meta -- can you deal at a higher level than these tools? in real-world language where NLP still operates? |
| Sandworm | Can I ask you....I've seen Mexicans...Blacks..Japanese...I'm not sure I've ever met a pure "Introvert"...do they really exist outside of some psychologists model or a set of test scores? In other words: what IS an "introvert"? |
| metaclone | sure... only in language |
| Sandworm | Versus a person who has a set of behaviors they are used to doing and a set of responses they are used to having... |
| Jonathan | Dan -- once you've installed an anchor or set of anchors into those states, you can program in your behavior in a number of different ways -- future pacing (and meta-future pacing) |
| metaclone | but this is just one way of referencing energy levels |
| DocSpiff | the man from Nantucket was an introvert |
| SunDog | just |
| metaclone | its like asking a runner to keep running... are there limits |
| Jonathan | and another example would be swishes etc to cause other situations to lead into your desired state anchor! |
| metaclone | ? |
| Jonathan | (ok focusing on the primary chat here again Dan) |
| Sandworm | The issue is: can an "introvert" choose to switch to extroversion as easily as anyone else, given the proper training and tools..... |
| metaclone | I agree to a point Sandworm |
| Dan_26 | at certain times for me, the use of an anchor seems to create an internal dissociation. . . and then when I fire it off at a desired time, there is a stronger state present that shadows the one represented by the anchor |
| metaclone | but then we're talking a catastrophic shift in their model to train them |
| Dan_26 | overshadows |
| Sandworm | I've seen VERY "introverted" students go WAY the other way...only because they've been taught a new set of tools and skills... |
| metaclone | catastrophe: not being bad but being irreversible change |
| Jonathan | Why would that have to be catastrophic? |
| Sandworm | Whoa! Whoa! |
| metaclone | maybe |
| Jonathan | Couldn't you do it while laughing your ass off? |
| Sandworm | I don't see it that way.... |
| DocSpiff | I used to be an introvert.... |
| Sandworm | If you design in massive flexibility that they didn't previously have.... |
| metaclone | massive flexibility... ok how |
| Sandworm | I don't think that is irreversible per se...they still have the option of "introverting" when it is appropriate... |
| SunDog | it's not a catastrophe to have a choice |
| metaclone | yes but the whole structure of their model is changed forever with the type of change youre getting at |
| Sandworm | NOW we've got one of meta's hot-buttons....Flexibility..it's a value he is willing to pursue even at the cost of trying on some radically new notions! |
| Jonathan | I mean, if you're in an outrageously humorous state and someone skilled in blowing out less than useful beliefs about your skills with people were to say a few things and suddenly you started to WANT to talk to anyone in a humorous way... wouldn't that be a neat way to discover that inner you that you didn't know existed until now? |
| Virgin | More choices, more flexibility, more options, more outcomes possible |
| metaclone | then we're talking higher level than just a state shift or say a chain |
| Sandworm | Yes..that is true, meta.... |
| SunDog | true |
| SunDog | we started with believing you can change state, right? |
| Sandworm | Which means it is no longer something that happens "only for so long"... |
| DocSpiff | what's this model crap..? |
| Jonathan | Definitely SunDog ;) |
| DocSpiff | you aren't intro or extroverted.. it depends on the context |
| Jonathan | DocSpiff -- no flamewars in here please. |
| Sandworm | You then move away from a state and into a "trait"... |
| metaclone | DocSpiff: and that's either/or logic |
| DocSpiff | if your building was on fire you would be definitely extroverted |
| Sandworm | Which is supported by beliefs, values and has extension through time... |
| SunDog | tendency, preference out of choices |
| Sandworm | It's change at a higher logical level that makes the state into a TRAIT.... Do you see the distinction, Meta? |
| Jonathan | And the nice thing about it all is... the change in state is simply a CHOICE. And you get to choose what state you take on for what context. |
| Jonathan | This isn't about losing your present frame -- its about adding in MORE. So let's calibrate to where we're all at. |
| DocSpiff | And, since you have done this in some context, you can reuse it in others, if you so wish. |
| Jonathan | Absolutely. Let's see where Meta's at though -- I want to get some closure on the points raised thus far |
| SunDog | Closure is good? thinking, thinking |
| Jonathan | Metaclone -- how ya doing? |
| metaclone | There was a state change |
| Dan_26 | He's thinking about it as it gets installed deeper and deeper |
| Jonathan | I was reviewing the conversation... its interesting how much more strongly a position is defended when there are less threads to tie it into the rest of a belief system. At a systemic level, meta_'s belief about flexibility and models, in my opinion, may be caught within a very powerful structure of how these models must be entered and dealt with. And this may work BEAUTIFULLY for him. It wouldn't work well for me, personally, but that's my choice, and that was his choice... |
| metaclone | Not true; I just use models to see other models. |
| Jonathan | I was just using the language as a model of what was behind it |
| metaclone | Which is true for all of us. Try seeing what your neurology can't. Plus all models work among friends. |
| Jonathan | Yes metaclone, that's true. I think in meta terms as well, often. Interesting conversation. Would you care to describe your NLP background for us? |
| metaclone | I've seen most people in the field. And basically live in a house and all we do is NLP stuff! What a trip, huh? But I'd rather discuss topics than my personal history... |
| Jonathan | Sounds really cool, if you ask me, but that vague description could create a lot of different images. If you were A -> V about descriptions! |
| SunDog | OK, so, we have states, we can have different states if we choose to (with some practice), now what? Like, how to begin changing other people's states! |
LEARNING TO CHANGE OTHER PEOPLE'S STATES | |
| Jonathan | So there are a lot of ways to recognize using calibration and such what states other people are in. That's job # 1. You have to know WHERE another person is at, state-wise speaking. |
| SunDog | And that's not necessarily where they think they are right? |
| Jonathan | Once you know where someone is at... then you can build in the feedback loop... that tells you if they're stuck... or if they're moving... Sure, it may be where they think they are but possibly not. Here's where I trust MY feelings if I've calibrated their physiology well. Asking them how they're doing is a good way of getting info... both verbally and nonverbally, right? I mean, regarding SunDog's comment... |
| metaclone | and if they're not, go for a pattern interrupt and bring them back into your trance |
| galamud | I really wish I didn't miss the beginning of this. |
| SunDog | It gets info, yes. |
| Jonathan | If they tell me they're really pleased about something, and they're congruent, then maybe the verbal indication is good enough to move forward with that assumption. |
| SunDog | Bingo, congruent! |
| Jonathan | But if they tell me they're fine, and they're very incongruent, then... I trust what I feel/see/hear in concert. And I trust what they DO, rather than what they SAY, more. So congruency is usually an indicator to me as to whether I can trust what I'm hearing, or not. |
| SunDog | Exactly, trust your response to their behavior. |
| metaclone | I'd just whip 'em into my trance using a pattern interrupt and sentence fragments! Leave their neurology no choice! |
| Jonathan | Now, at one level... this should tell you that listening is of little use and that you should just ALWAYS listen to what people do and ignore what they say... |
| SunDog | but first, meta, know what you're changing them from, eh? |
| Jonathan | but guess what -- that doesn't really help Rapport, by much! |
| Jonathan | Oh! Rapport?! I'm supposed to maintain rapport thru all of this? Awwwww no way! |
| SunDog | Only if you want to influence! |
| metaclone | Ummm it got doesnt matter... because we're talking conversationally here, aren't we? |
| Jonathan | Yes! Only if you want to influence. |
| metaclone | Always. |
| Jonathan | And isn't influence absolutely KEY in knowing how to change other people's states? |
| SunDog | Influence IS changing other people's states, isn't it? |
| Jonathan | I mean, people will almost always move in the direction chosen by really congruent people, even more so when you're in Rapport. |
| Jonathan | Not necessarily, SunDog, but that's close enough in my opinion... (trying to come up with a good counter example) -- lessee -- can you influence someone to do something they would not ordinarily have done but remain in the same state as they do it for you? |
| metaclone | any question/direction will capture a mind |
| SunDog | Okay, we define influence as changing behavior, not nec. state, is that it? |
| Jonathan | I'd define influence as causing behaviors. Which could be taken to mean changing behaviors, I suppose... Do you like changing behaviors more? I can go with that. ;) |
| SunDog | Okay, I'll agree with those labels. Wait, you can't agree with me, I'm agreeing with you! |
| Jonathan | So if we're at a definitional level -- Changing States (in other people) is doing something to cause an adjustment to their sensory experience, or, something to cause a measureable shift in their metaprograms in action. How's that? |
| metaclone | beautiful |
| SunDog | Good. What does y'all think? |
| Jonathan | I came up with that on the fly too! Like, they may shift their kino... but its a changed state if they just shift their visual system to be more Vc as opposed to Va, right? |
| SunDog | Okay, state's a 4-tuple, behavior arises from state. Changing the 4-tuple is a new state, right? |
| Dan_26 | is it possible to chang a person's state without changing their sensory experience or causing a major shirt in their metaprograms? |
| Jonathan | For the non-NLPers here, Vc=Visual Constructed (future imagination), and Va=Visual Accessed (past visual imagery). That's the 64K question to put my definition to the test. |
| SunDog | Dan: I think we need to distinguish external v. internal sensory experience. |
| metaclone | yes. |
| Jonathan | Please -- beat it up! I want a better definition if one exists |
| metaclone | but then we're not in the land of NLP in my opinion |
| Jonathan | How so, meta? |
| Dan_26 | I agree with changing sensory experience (something has to change), but not sure about a major change in metaprogram |
| SunDog | State is the combination of VAKO/G internal (in my model) |
| metaclone | well NLP is the study of sensory channels |
| SunDog | Don't have to change metaprogram to change state. |
| metaclone | VAK is the language of the nercous system |
| Jonathan | Sure, SunDog. Hmmmm Give me a counterexample |
| metaclone | to create changes outside of VAK and not alter state is outside of NLP... psychic/spiritual |
| SunDog | I can still be sorting toward a different pleasure, no? |
| Jonathan | I was thinking about introvert vs extrovert, motivational direction, sorts by self vs others... |
| metaclone | energy levels if you like |
| Jonathan | energy levels is totally kino |
| metaclone | maybe |
| Jonathan | you can visualize energy all you want but if you're not feeling it meta -- it ain't energy ;) |
| metaclone | but I think it can be auditory as well |
| Dan_26 | are we taking introvert/extrovert as a practical example or are we abstracting far above practicality? :) |
| metaclone | youre a trainer right... how can you tell a shift in enregy levels in the room ? |
| Jonathan | Several ways meta -- |
| SunDog | ooh, I feel it and see it and hear it |
| metaclone | +k external/external - auditory |
| Jonathan | I feel the shift in my body (spine, mostly). And around the temples. |
| SunDog | smell it if it's bad |
| Dan_26 | for me, primarily kino |
| metaclone | yeah you get the output thru +K maybe |
| Jonathan | That's usually my clue, which wakes me up a bit... and then sometimes I see everyone moving around. A little more than before. Or I hear breathing changes or the rustling of clothes. |
| SunDog | snoring |
| Jonathan | or I see the facial coloration change; snoring *LOL* - rotfl -- yep that too |
| metaclone | then how do u give a room a psychic injection thru the senses.. |
| Jonathan | OOoooh getting into interesting areas... |
| SunDog | yelling |
| Jonathan | HAH! |
| metaclone | were still on states ;) |
| SunDog | oh, that's humming |
| Jonathan | I may do that, but I may not want to talk about it here. I may want to focus on doing it one-on-one here in the chat channel, so that we're on topic for others who will read this and hopefully take something useful with them! |
| metaclone | OK. (nodding) |
| Jonathan | what's META for anyway, supposed to accomplish? KnowwhutImean? |
| metaclone | meta for - nice phonological ambiguity |
| SunDog | okay, so back to, changing state, not behaviors in others... but if I don't change behavior, how do I calibrate? |
| Jonathan | And if I'm cycling through states MYSELF in the appropriate sequence... as I set up appropriate anchors... I can pay close attention to the shifts in the room that occur more and more... (thanks glad you caught it, Meta). Hmm SunDog -- can you clarify your question please? |
| SunDog | oh. yeah. hmm. |
| metaclone | which means if you practice shifting your state enuf youre neurology gets more flexible and it gets easier |
| Jonathan | Two lines of convo here... |
| SunDog | We said state is a 4-tuple. Influence is changing/causing behavior. But without influence, I don't know |
| Dan_26 | Should I make it three? LOL! |
| Jonathan | SunDog... -- hold that thought |
| SunDog | That I've caused a state change, true? Holding. |
| metaclone | Actors are great at it! |
| Jonathan | Absolutely -- if they're really good at METHOD acting -- especially people such as Jeff Goldblum! |
| metaclone | But then so do we all... we're talking about the skills there already, just getting conscious of the fact your neurology can do it, but just doing it with volition. uve just got good at doing it conscioulsy |
| Jonathan | So anyway -- back to changing *other* people's states... |
| SunDog | which starts with the belief you can... |
| Jonathan | we have job#1 of finding out where other people are... and we get to SunDog's question... State is a 4-tuple. Influence is changing/causing behavior. But without influence... You're asking how can you change states without influencing them? I see the problem I set up for myself with the earlier points. |
| SunDog | Exactly, I don't think we can (or know that we did). Behavior indicates state |
| Jonathan | We need to define influence more carefully! |
| metaclone | go for that closure... |
| Jonathan | Yes, if you include heartbeat, color, posture as examples of behavior. etc etc etc... |
| SunDog | Indeed I do. |
| Jonathan | OK. So all aspects of physiology are behaviors to be calibrated... |
| SunDog | Yes. Indicators of state. I take your physiology as a map of your state. I can't actually know your state can I? |
| Jonathan | And once we know where they're at... then we can determine WHERE WE WANT TO TAKE THEM... |
| SunDog | At least, what we want it to look like (behaviorally) |
| Jonathan | Ahhh here's where my definitions still work -- just because a behavior changes slightly doesn't mean I've changed their state measurably! So I can influence without changing state measurably... but I can't change their state without influencing them. |
| SunDog | Backwards, I think. I can change your internal experience without changing your behavior can't I? |
| metaclone | index computations: internal processes/internal state/external behaviour |
| Jonathan | Whoops. Now we have both angles working. |
| SunDog | Good, meta. Yes, It's complicated! And therefore, rife with possibilities... |
| metaclone | paradox exists.. aint it grand |
CHUNKING MUCH HIGHER | |
| Jonathan | Lets CHUNK WAY UP! Time to chunk up. |
| SunDog | UP we go. |
| Jonathan | Leaving the definitions behind as best we can and dealing with the realities of how we change other people's behaviors all the time anyway... |
| Jonathan | WHAT IS OUR OUTCOME in changing OUR states? |
| SunDog | I like to feel better, how about y'all? |
| galamud | I'd like to feel constantly giddy. |
| Jonathan | Hehheh -- I like to feel better than you do ;) |
| metaclone | Heheh! |
| SunDog | Keep going up, Jonathan |
| Dan_26 | Desired behavior |
| Jonathan | OK, so feeling GREAT is a good one. WHAT IS OUR OUTCOME in changing OTHER PEOPLE'S STATES? |
| SunDog | I like to feel better, how about y'all? |
| galamud | Making them fall in love with us! |
| Dan_26 | Galamud, I love you, man! |
| galamud | Dan, you're not getting my Bud Light! |
| SunDog | That one's context-dependent, I think. |
| Jonathan | So you change other people's states to be MUCH better, thereby taking advantage of that natural hypnotic feedback loop phenomena and riding the wave of their good feelings? |
| SunDog | Oh, YES!! |
| Jonathan | Yes -- SunDog brought up that we may have other outcomes that are less than immediately-kino-driven, and more "intellectual," But KINO is good too! |
| SunDog | And then I make them PAY ME! |
| galamud | Kino? Isn't that some Chinese Delicacy? |
| Dan_26 | So everything's ultimately about feeling goooooood. |
| Jonathan | Well, Dan, that's awfully John-Stuart-Mill-ish of you... I didn't know you were Utilitarian! |
| SunDog | Isn't he dead? |
| Dan_26 | If I knew who the hell he was, I'd respond to that! |
| Jonathan | Sorry, I jumped into my academic bullsh*t for a moment there. |
| SunDog | Wipe it off |
| Jonathan | Anyhow, moving further up... WHAT happens when you... gain more control over your own states... so that you can be more effective in all situations... more effective with other people, feeling even better about things... so that you can influence other people's states in really wonderful ways? |
| metaclone | You get more into the sensate world? |
| galamud | We gain the ultimate secret of the universe! |
| SunDog | I inflict myself on them so I can feel better. |
| grazzhppr | All of the above |
| galamud | We become Buddhas. |
| Jonathan | And what would it be like after you've discovered how influential you can really be, and recognized when you'd done these things less than elegantly and adjusting appropriately for the future? oooh cool! |
| SunDog | Maybe i'd learn something? |
| galamud | Maybe we'd just keep getting better! Until we explode, because we're so incredibly good. |
| SunDog | Maybe we did, uh uh |
| Jonathan | And if all of that were simple results of spending some time exploring our own behavior and learning about anchors and future-pacing and some pretty simple NLP skills, (or skills from other wonderful models)... |
| metaclone | But notice your own states and how they shift... tehn its easier to see it in others |
| SunDog | We'd look back and laugh and how long we'd waited |
| galamud | Spending 30 minutes a day on a treadmill. |
| SunDog | "At how long we'd waited", duh |
| Jonathan | Wouldn't it be cool to chunk up even higher and discover that all of this is just a few rungs in the ladder of learning more about yourself and recognizing how wonderful it can be to reach closer to your true potential... and then going even another rung higher! |
| SunDog | Why, it is. it is cool! |
| galamud | We have unlimited power? Could I learn how to play the piano like Ben Folds? =) |
| Jonathan | And bring a few other cool people with us -- because there's this GREAT pizza place up there |
| grazzhppr | that would be cool -- pepperoni! |
| SunDog | Ah, it's heaven.. |
| Jonathan | Hrmmmmm... I wonder if all it took to change states would be to simply chunk up a few times, looking at the positive in experiences and events... and the higher you get, the less annoying details are present. Its hard to be annoyed when you're above the clouds...! SunDog ;) |
| metaclone | Yeah, get a labotomy! |
| Jonathan | And the next time you watch an infomercial... I want you to recognize how at the root of each motivational segment towards the selling phase is basically a process of chunking higher... and higher and higher... |
| SunDog | And refusing to plunge yourself back into the depths of unhappy |
| Jonathan | right! |
| galamud | Good thing, too! I spend my entire morning watching infomercials! |
| Jonathan | And then you can laugh at having become armed with the knowledge of how others influence you, all the time! |
| galamud | That would be pretty cool, if I could do everything effortlessly. |
| Dan_26 | So you'd want to bring others up there with you when you talk to them instead of meeting them back down in that place where you once were |
| SunDog | It's easier if you do it effortlessly... |
| Jonathan | I wanna thank everyone for coming and challenging the group with really interesting points/opinions, etc.. including ME! This was GREAT! |
| SunDog | We are something, I tell ya. |
| Dan_26 | I wish i'd caught the whole chat; enjoyed it, guys. |
| galamud | Yeah, that part that I got was pretty cool |
| Jonathan | Thanks to ALL of you for coming and participating... |
IRC CHAT OVER! | |
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Inbox Insights
- Knowledge Engineering (& Belief Craft) have evolved, into GeniusMapping™
- As of September 2020, we're in the process of moving from Tampa, Florida, to the Youngstown Ohio area. Currently, during the Coronavirus era, we're mostly focusing on Zoom-based Coaching, and aligning resources to run online courses.
- How "Civil Engineering" totally reframes the word "Stress," redefines the phrase "Stress Management," and leads us to embrace Stress!
- Many NLP Practitioners are more sloppy with their thinking patterns, than they'd like to admit, or... would even notice.
- Watch NLP Co-Founder Richard Bandler use NLP to eliminate Michael Strahan's phobic response to snakes -- in minutes (with Kelly Ripa bringing over a BIG snake at the end to test Michael's response). Spoiler alert: It worked ridiculously well.
- No matter what skill you want to learn, no matter what fears or concerns or hesitation you may have, there are and will always be a wide range of approaches, to learning that skill. It's important to keep that in mind when making learning choices.
- Many more famous people have been trained in Ericksonian (indirect) Hypnosis and NLP than you might guess. There are certainly far more who have strong interests here than have publically admitted so.
- On January 1, 2015, Jonathan Altfeld and 20 other co-authors released a digital book entitled "Creating Business Growth."
- What are the Four Stages of Learning?
- Mayra RiveraAttorney, Miami, FLAttended Course : NLP Practitioner Training
I recommend Jonathan's NLP Course to anyone who is interested in dramatically improving his or her rapport and communication skills. I am very impressed with Jonathan's quick and practical approach to the questions posed by his students. I have accepted the challenge to continue practicing these skills in the future, and strive to achieve Jonathan's elegance and mastery.
1998 - Andy PrestonSales Trainer, Outstanding Results, Manchester & LondonAttended Course : Linguistic Wizardry
What a fantastic 3-day event this is! Having been around the fringes of NLP for some time, after doing my Practitioner course, I was looking to further my skills without necessarily going the Master Practitioner route yet. I first met Jonathan Altfeld at an evening he ran in Manchester and heard about the Linguistic Wizadry course, and signed up immediately. Not only did the course look fantastic, but it was being held near Amsterdam - how could I refuse! In 3 days, I learnt more practical NLP (and how and where to apply it!) than with the vast majority of other trainings I've been to. I knew there were NLP trainers in the room, other Practitioners and people who'd not done Prac yet - and I was worried that the material would either be too complex for me to understand, or too simple (for the newbies). After the first hour, all those concerns melted away. Not only did Jonathan make the material simple, easy-to-understand and very practical, but the way he taught ensured everyone in the room (regardless of skill level) was getting massive value. I find I've achieved great command of metaphors, sensory language, storytelling, and much more - to list them here simply would not do the course justice! In my humble opinion this is by far the best value NLP course I've ever done, and having studied with some of the best NLP trainers in the world - I rate Jonathan in the top 1%.
http://www.outstanding-results.co.uk/2006 
Sara WisemanAuthor of “Writing the Divine,” “Your Psychic Child”, & “The Intuitive Path”, Portland, ORAttended Course : Speaking IngeniouslyVery few can do what Jonathan does! A true master teacher of NLP and inspired public speaking, he takes complex concepts and teaches them in a way so that you not only understand them intellectually, but absorb them at a deeper level. The result? What you’ve learned is there when you need it: with clients, for teaching and presenting, for speaking to audiences of all sizes. Highly recommended!
http://www.sarawiseman.com2011
Andy SmithTrainer of NLP & Appreciative Inquiry, Coaching Leaders, Manchester UK & FranceAttended Course : Belief Craft Seminar"I have attended separate KE & [SoM] trainings in the past, Belief Craft is definitely more than the sum of its parts. Doug's way of training [SoM] is the best I have found; for the first time I now feel I 'get' the "why" as well as the "how" of [SoM]. On my NLP Trainer's Training, [SoM] was one of the areas people had the least recall of - both the 'how' and also when and why you would ever use it. Previous trainings of [SoM] I have attended by other trainers have not sufficiently demonstrated... etc. Jonathan gets better every time he trains KE - awesomely powerful and complex concepts are rendered easy to learn and apply in the real world. I can't wait to start trying out this new material (Belief Craft and/or KE on its own) to benefit myself and my clients."
http://www.coachingleaders.co.uk/2005- Donna McGeorgeSpeaker, Facilitator, People with PEP,Hired Coaching : Personal Coaching
On the 2 occasions that you have coached me, I have experienced what I assumed to be metaphor sessions. I'm not totally conscious of the process or content of the sessions, yet the results I have had from both sessions are as follows: Session 1 - desired outcome - "get some focus and direction for moving forward given that I'd achieved a lot of what I set out to. What's next?". Whatever you did, my business increased by over 30% in revenues following the session. My focus changed, and I implemented the "Donna the Diva" project, which has resulted in my getting my mojo back, and being way more confident in my skin and clear about what I'm good at. This has also resulted in my "sacking" 2 clients that didn't fit my vision for myself, and for PEP. Again, I'm not sure that I'm consciously aware of what I was doing differently - all I know is that a shift happened, and the result was useful (to say the least). Session 2 - desired outcome - "I'm earning more money than I ever had, and I am swimming in debt - help?! ". Again, I know we talked about a bunch of strategies and I'm clear they also were metaphors. I think our session was about 8 weeks ago? Well, since then - I have cleared all my creditors, and have over $25K in a personal bank account (something that has NEVER happened before). Steve and I are currently shopping for property, and I'm no longer afraid to answer the phone for fear of speaking to a creditor. The physical manifestation of this is that I used to have a folder that was nearly 1.5 inches thick full of bills and accounts. It is currently about an eighth of an inch thick - and these are all less than 30 days. So - that's a pretty literal description of my results of working with you, and I am most grateful to you, and look forward to further coaching. I am happy for you to use any of the above. None of it is a secret - I tell anyone who cares to listen about the results I get following your sessions.
http://www.peoplewithpep.com.au/2007 - Peter FreethLondon, UKAttended Course : Belief Craft MP3 Set
Less than 5 hours after the end of Jonathan's KE course in London I'm visualising extensive and complex belief systems hidden within language - and keeping up a 'full time' conversation at the same time. Why is this useful? In the past I may have gotten to a strategy and thought 'I'm done' whereas now I hear and see the whole complex structure. Key decision points and` behaviours are emerging which are many times more complete, powerful and elegant than anything I would have arrived at previously through standard 'strategy elicitation'. Before today, I knew people who I thought were complex, now I know that they're no more complex than anyone else, they just hide their beliefs better. This means that I know that I can now choose to work with everybody rather than just the 'easy people'. I am now creating subtle and elegant interventions without thinking about it and I know how much that is going to benefit me more and more over time. And I had a great time too!
2003 - UstahiKosovoBought Audio : Knowledge Engineering
My life is really getting even more interesting, just now I finished listening one more piece of puzzle I've been missing - how to track beliefs. My belief about beliefs is that they're life itself. So why not learn everything about them? If you want a precise model of how to do it and get to know people's circuits then Knowledge Engineering is the course to study and put in immediate use. I'm soon going to become Telecoms/Computers engineer and Jonathans experience as AI expert really got me in a new world of possibilites. I'm thinking about how to use it in all the directions in my life. As a guaranteed side benefit from the course is also opening your ears and listening to what people tell you. I'm really finding this a true must skill one should have. I'd like to thank Jonathan for his way of putting the model and for his genuine interest in his customers.
2002 - Michael ChristonNLP Trainer & Entrepreneur, Edinburgh, ScotlandAttended Course : Linguistic Wizardry
Linguistic Wizardry is a 3-day course which can be attended by non-NLP, Practitioners, Master Practitioners and Trainers... and all will enjoy and learn from the experience. Not only does Jonathan demonstrate an incredible understanding and proficiency in linguistics but presents/trains in a very entertaining and effective manner. As a trainer of NLP I still enjoy attending training (there is always something to be learnt) - on such occasions I have a professional interest in what outcomes are achieved by the trainer. It is on this point that Jonathan stands out a mile in comparison to many trainers in the field of NLP... EVERYONE in the room dramatically improved their skill level. In my experience I have never come across such success... and I have trained with many 'great' names. As for the content - This course is not an indepth exploration of the Meta Model or Milton Model, though there are a few references through the three days. Instead this programme quite rightly concentrates on the basis and delivery of communication with specific emphasis on state and sensory acuity. Hence - If you were wondering why your 'theoretical' or academic understanding of language has not achieved the desired practical results - THIS IS THE COURSE FOR YOU. Jonathan is amazing and definitely deserves to be considered as one of the best NLP trainers in the world. And interestingly - he is without ego or arrogance and is (for me) one of the easiest trainers to chat with I have ever met. If you have not already done so - TRAIN WITH JONATHAN and discover just how much further you can take your NLP skills.
2007 - Howard WolfMiami, FLAttended Course : Persuasion Summit
PTPS was absolutely the best training in persuasion I've ever experienced. Chris' skills in NLP and persuasion are a compilation of the best of Richard Bandler, Kenrick Cleveland, & Michael Hall, all combined. Chris has evolved these techniques, enhanced them, and repackaged persuasion for the new millenium. Chris has tested his techniques thousands of times through the thousands of telemarketers he's managed over the years. This seminar will go down in the annuls of NLP history.
2001 - Brian TracySpeaker, Author, World-Renowned Business Expert, Brian Tracy International,Bought Audio : Finding Your Irresistible Voice
"This is a wonderful program that will give you a powerful, authoritative voice. It can change your life."
http://briantracy.com/2000