Recently, on social media, an NLP Practitioner asked a question about a client who reported having a phobia, and with whom he used the NLP Fast Phobia Cure, which may have partly worked, but it came back a few days later?
NLP & Ethics, Chat Transcript
IRC Chat Pages [ Back to Chat Index Page ]
IRC Chat Log, March 2, 1998
NLP and Ethics | |
| Jonathan | OK Folks welcome to this chat on NLP and Ethics... I wanted to get some of this topic out into the open and explore it from all sides of the NLP technology and how its used, and how it isn't, and what the implications are for people USING it and for people on whom or with whom it is used. And in addition to all that, what are the responsibilities of those using NLP! For starters. Richard Bandler is presently pending trademark approval on the term NLP. Which has a number of major implications across the country, not only with regard to ongoing legal issues (which are beyond the scope of my discussion here tonight), but also with regard to how states regulate NLP™ practitioners! Again, the legal issues are going to be settled in one way or another outside of anything we could say here on the matter. However, lets think about this from a different perspective: Right now, some states see NLP as a replacement for therapy (which it isn't) and are concerned about the regulation of NLP. Mind you, its often the case that those who would regulate its practice are those who have no idea how to evaluate practitioners, other than to blanket carousel NLP practitioners under a hypnosis umbrella, and would demand that these same practitioners be licensed mental health practitioners in order to legally do NLP with people. |
| Raggy | It is very difficult to say where therapy ends, and where personal development starts. |
| Jonathan | Yes it is, and countries and states differ as to where that line is drawn. There are pros and cons to regulation. There are pros and cons to how NLP is viewed. |
| Raggy | Systems theory? |
| Jonathan | Now, some people would take the stand that it all boils down to state/country control of professions, etc... I tend to think it all boils down to caveat emptor of people's personal freedoms to choose who they see for what purpose. And how once they choose someone to see, for whatever purpose, or, given ANY application of NLP, what the responsibilities are for people using it... ...And how once they choose someone to see, for whatever purpose, its up to the people directly involved to know what's going on at some level. Make sense? So now that I've thrown a LOT of ideas into the mix, I want to do something VERY different... and invite OPEN chat about these issues. Client Ethics become important here too -- in terms of being up front with the person they choose to see, about the value of a prac's time and assistance. Then also you have the issue of measurement of the change... which is SO subjective sometimes it can be arguable! But then months later sometimes its much clearer. So... based on all of the above, lets get started. Opinions? |
| Virgin2 | One frequently repeated "ecology" notion is that you always try to give people more choices. |
| Jonathan | Sure, that's true. Rather than taking anything away, its more about giving much more positive and empowering choices. |
| pelone | If NLP becomes a regulated profession, then how will that the non-licensed NLP™ trainers and practitioners. Will certain ones be given immunity because of their longevity in the field? |
| Virgin2 | Presumably, one can keep/continue doing things the old way? |
| bro_p | Is there a way of taking a before and after? |
| Dan_26 | I agree with your points, the primary concern related to ethics appears to be related to the ethics of the practitioner. |
| Jonathan | Good question, Pelone. |
| pelone | Longevity is the missing word. |
| Jonathan | NLP IS a regulated profession in the US in some states. Like the state I'm in. ;) Florida. |
| Dan_26 | Is it lumped under hypnosis there, Jonathan? |
| Jonathan | Yes, Dan, NLP falls under the hypnosis rule here. So I don't do NLP private personal change work. I do NLP™ Training's, public and private. Explicitly, I do education. I don't do hypnosis. |
| bro_p | Is it going to be like tenure with college professors? |
| Dan_26 | Wow, someone in state congress actually felt it was worthy of being invaded by law :) |
| Virgin2 | Given that the area of ethics can be so broad (no pun) can we focus on a particular issue? |
| Belaflek | in a sense...they are regulating how you communicate |
| Jonathan | Well, I honestly hope not. Tenure with college profs can be a good thing and it can be abused. Often Tenure leads to inactivity and complacency -- but just as often it leads to more interesting careers. |
| Virgin2 | Many forms of regulation of communication exist. |
| Jonathan | That's what I'm looking to see, Virgin2. I'm hoping this free-for-all in the beginning will provide us with an area of group interest to explore if you have a particular suggestion, lets throw it out for all to "vote on" as it were... |
| Dan_26 | Any regulation placed upon NLP practice would certain reflect regulations that exist in other similar areas (ie, hypnosis) |
| pelone | If the government is so concerned with defining regulatory measures with regards to NLP, then it only validates the existence of the profession and the visionary aspects of Richard Bandler and John Grindler. |
| Jonathan | Possibly Dan. If the trademark were to go through (not stating my opinion or preference here), that could potentially invalidate the state's present categorization of NLP™. ...in Florida, anyway. |
| Dan_26 | I would anticipate that if that is the case, then they would just do what has already been done, and have those who "certify" or designate hypnotists to do the same for NLP |
| Jonathan | A trademarked technology cannot be grouped and regulated in the same way as an industry. |
| Belaflek | I dunno, I sense the first amendment getting a little torn..not a lot but just a touch |
| Jonathan | I'm in agreement Bela. |
| Belaflek | Freedom of speech and all |
| Dan_26 | Once politics comes into the formula, that is all but inevitable |
| Jonathan | But I will stay within the law as it reads in Florida, and in the US. That's not my focus. My focus is on Ethics in any area of NLP and I'm interested in an open discussion of these issues! Yes, I'd agree, Dan. So what about ethics of the client/student? |
| Dan_26 | This is a broader aspect than i anticipated, but it is worthy of consideration |
| Jonathan | To take responsibility for finding clarity of measurement? |
| pelone | Seems to me that the regulation of NLP is unethical as it (in my mind) violates freedom of speech. |
| Jonathan | Depends on the mindset pelone. |
| Belaflek | The ethics of....hmmmmmm |
| bro_p | As far as clarity of measurement... often times the client is unaware that a change has occurred |
| Belaflek | Isn't the client/student under the NLPer's care? |
| Jonathan | If you believe its a process like hypnosis, rather than a technology and a concrete set of skills/tools* to be taught and learned, then, regulation may seem appropriate to a government perspective. |
| Dan_26 | But at this level, it's not just speech; it's profound influence on other people. |
| Jonathan | I choose the latter view when I do my training's. But I'll go with the state's view with respect to private change-work because I live here. Sure, Dan, that's true. Now. Lets say I know nothing of NLP, but I walk in somewhere quiet and walk up to the nearest demure person and yell at the top of my lungs awful things. (how awful of me!). Am I having a profound impact on that person's mood? Sure, probably. But its probably not illegal (disturbing the peace perhaps!). But it's probably not a breach of licensed activity. |
| Virgin2 | Depends on precise language. |
| Jonathan | That's right, it does depend on the language. And guess who's supposed to be clearer about language than others. ;) Its a circle alright. |
| Belaflek | If you yell fire in a crowded theatre however..... |
| Jonathan | Yes yes, Oliver Wendell Holmes... All too true and that is one flip side to the discussion. |
| Dan_26 | But if you had sufficient training, one could argue that you had full awareness before hand of the response and were therefore liable for the person's response (playing devil's advocate here) |
| Jonathan | Yes Dan. |
| Virgin2 | NLP really offers a new paradigm for communication. |
| Jonathan | I agree bro_p. Supposed to. But doesn't have to. How do we protect ourselves? |
| Dan_26 | Similar methods are used by advertisers and movie makers all the time, how are they regulated in this aspect? |
| Jonathan | Is there a way to measure competence and goodness? |
| Dan_26 | Competence, perhaps; goodness, hmmmmm... |
| Belaflek | Whether you believe in social relativism, or not, too. |
| Jonathan | Some states feel that competence is measured by the # of acronyms after someone's name! Theoretically, though, quality could be maintained by upping the standards through the roof, which would have interesting implications for people wanting to acquire training in NLP. The certifications would be increasingly difficult to attain & take longer to get. |
| Dan_26 | And much more work to maintain and continue to be active/updated |
| Jonathan | I would have no problem with people having to "do more" to acquire their NLP certifications, assuming that Bandler & others wanted that as well (he's the one who presently licenses everyone through the Society, including me). |
| Belaflek | I thought people learn best when they learn quickly |
| Jonathan | Yes, Bela... I'm not saying people would learn SLOWLY -- lol -- but I'm glad you raised the point. What I'm talking about is having to learn MORE ;) |
| Dan_26 | More than... |
| Jonathan | ...more than is presently required -- i.e., perhaps learning the responsible uses of the technology, behaviorally, and then showing proof of that knowledge behaviorally. It's not a half-bad idea, but I should state my obligations here (legally & agreeably) -- I support the 1st Institute. |
| Dan_26 | Narrowing the range of options an individual has to what another individual labels as "responsible" and then acting accordingly? |
| Jonathan | There was a discussion on alt.hypnosis recently on ABREACTIONS which was quite interesting. People talking about dealing with abreactions all the time, and how the catharsis that follows is quite elegant. Please. Go for what's PLEASURABLE and what works NOW, either if you do hypnosis or if you teach others particular NLP skills. |
| Dan_26 | Hmmm. . . not really comfortable with a lot of this discussion currently, we're throwing nominalizations all over the place and then implying never's |
| Jonathan | OK Dan, how would you like to see this happen differently? |
| Dan_26 | Perhaps we are simply chunking too big, or over-generalizing |
| Jonathan | Without naming names -- we can chunk lower. |
| Dan_26 | People get in my head everyday, but I only use what I perceive as useful. |
| Jonathan | I believe the unconscious mind doesn't take suggestions that are in total disagreement with its basic value system, but that its EASY for someone to morph your values into a confused disarray and that's a disturbing thought. |
| Dan_26 | So, back to ethics... |
| mIRC | Hmmm, I don't know where I'm at here, but as for the chunking sizes, Isn't there something called "common sense"? |
| Jonathan | Sure mIRC. |
| Dan_26 | Yes mIRC, but it's often overlooked when it comes to regulation. |
| Belaflek | How are you to know their personal ethics as to the usage of NLP |
| Jonathan | Every certification training should be just that! A training, with opportunity for certification. |
| pelone | Is it ethical to certify a felon who can pose a threat to someone who is under their care and their influence? |
| mIRC | hmmm... Is it ethical to let someone perform a surgical operation without them being knowledgable enough about the surgery? |
| Jonathan | Granted. The quality of the trainer makes an enormous amount of difference in terms of how people really get the skills... but sometimes even with best efforts, not everyone shows that level of competence... how is that handled best? |
| Virgin2 | I'm still wondering about that one.... |
| Dan_26 | Does it reflect on the individual or the trainer? Or both? |
| Jonathan | (I have my own answers to these questions, but my answers are not the group answers, so I'm inviting discussion ;) |
| Belaflek | What about freewill...could people use NLP to hurt or damage freewill? |
| Jonathan | Yes. |
| Virgin2 | Generally, the more important the training is, the more society regulates it. |
| galamud | Awwwww, okay. I just wanted to know if any of you watched Ally McBeal, and if you noticed the NLP-ish techniques they use. |
| Belaflek | That's pretty heavy |
| Jonathan | Absolutely that's possible. One well known pattern for accomplishing that -- is called the double-bind. |
| mIRC | Galamud.. didn't watch it... :) |
| Jonathan | True Virgin2. And yes, galamud, Ally McBeal is *filled* with NLP style techniques! (from my perpective) |
| Belaflek | My friend was just telling me bout that 20min ago |
| Dan_26 | Are you going to tell us that now or later? |
| Jonathan | Yes Dan, Now, or later! Or not! |
| Dan_26 | Pattern interrupt for a double bind. . . answer YES or NO. |
| Jonathan | That's a simple double bind -- but its not really a double bind if you're just creating the illusion of only two choices when really there are more available. |
| galamud | They think of a time when they felt very confident, and when their confidence is really high, they imagine bells. Any time they want that confidence again, they look in the mirror until they can hear the bells. |
| Jonathan | The double bind is a situation or pattern which places the subject with a behavioral choice, with falsely limited choices, and no matter which choice they make they end up with the intended result. Setting up an elegant double-bind can be a singularly difficult thing to do... but is often at the crux of many powerful personal changes produced by NLP. |
| Virgin2 | Do you want to buy the red one or the green one? |
| Jonathan | You can tie a personal change to something very simple, where, no matter which choice they choose... they end up with the change they're after. (OK enough on the double bind) |
| Dan_26 | It stands to reason that if NLP practitioners want state recognition, they will be held to state regulation. But that's not how the state of NC works, anyway. |
| Virgin2 | This would probably apply to those doing therapy, but given the tremendous range of areas that NLP can be used for e.g. sales, flirting, etc... I don't think the state can or will try to regulate all that. |
| mIRC | Why do we regulate ourselves? |
| Jonathan | Now I'm not sure if you're going to sit back and learn the patterns in what we talk about here as we're talking about ethics, or if you're going to take active participation in this chat as you learn what what we're doing... but whichever it is I'm sure you're going to be a useful addition to the group and be good to yourself. |
| Dan_26 | Once politics has entered the formula, well, politics has entered the formula. |
| galamud | That's odd, it was the first thing that came into my mind! |
| Dan_26 | And that's why I mentioned it galamud :) |
| Jonathan | That's generally the case. The problem comes when people start complaining about all the people who HAVEN'T been ethical and haven't done useful work, and haven't charged appropriately and provided value and all that. OK. I think I'll cap off that with one comment. Take CARE of other people when you use all these skills, whether you're using NLP, or applications of NLP such as certain sales techniques, or just pure influence, or if you're a licensed therapist using NLP Techniques. Just take care of people. If you don't then you're propagating the BS mindset of the win-lose proposition, which really holds no place in reality. Win-Win, all the way. Sure gala -- that's exactly why I liked studying from him -- because he demonstrates while he teaches. Well, I'd like to thank everyone for coming tonight... and sharing their thoughts on being more ethical with NLP. |
| Dan_26 | Interesting chat, thanks again Jonathan for sharing with us |
| Jonathan | I doubt we reached any closure on the topic of NLP ethics tonight but perhaps we've gotten closer to understanding how the issue of being more ethical with NLP can move forward on the real front... in front of people... using the skills, responsibly. |
IRC CHAT OVER! | |
[ Back to Top ] [ Back to Chat Index Page ]
Inbox Insights
- Knowledge Engineering (& Belief Craft) have evolved, into GeniusMapping™
- As of September 2020, we're in the process of moving from Tampa, Florida, to the Youngstown Ohio area. Currently, during the Coronavirus era, we're mostly focusing on Zoom-based Coaching, and aligning resources to run online courses.
- How "Civil Engineering" totally reframes the word "Stress," redefines the phrase "Stress Management," and leads us to embrace Stress!
- Many NLP Practitioners are more sloppy with their thinking patterns, than they'd like to admit, or... would even notice.
- Watch NLP Co-Founder Richard Bandler use NLP to eliminate Michael Strahan's phobic response to snakes -- in minutes (with Kelly Ripa bringing over a BIG snake at the end to test Michael's response). Spoiler alert: It worked ridiculously well.
- No matter what skill you want to learn, no matter what fears or concerns or hesitation you may have, there are and will always be a wide range of approaches, to learning that skill. It's important to keep that in mind when making learning choices.
- Many more famous people have been trained in Ericksonian (indirect) Hypnosis and NLP than you might guess. There are certainly far more who have strong interests here than have publically admitted so.
- On January 1, 2015, Jonathan Altfeld and 20 other co-authors released a digital book entitled "Creating Business Growth."
- What are the Four Stages of Learning?
- Mark HenryCertified Hypnotherapist, Baton Rouge, LABought Video : “Building Hypnotic Rapport”
Jonathan's skill builders DVDs are incredible. Learn about building hypnotic rapport by pacing and leading others breathing patterns. I synchronized my breathing with several attractive women at coffee shops and malls in the last month. Each turned their bodies toward me while I sat across a room. They gazed at me for several seconds. I felt that I connected with them on an unconscious level. I later spoke with them and were amazed at their friendliness to a complete stranger.
2005 - Bob DillonSeminar Leader, VermontAttended Course : Speaking Ingeniously
No matter where you perceive your skill level, there is always more. Jonathan not only cuts diamonds, he polishes them, and adds more facets."
2002 - Ted VanderNootCognitrix, London, UKAttended Course : Belief Craft MP3 Set
"Your presentation of AI & Knowledge Engineering & how computer software systems can learn & decide was quite interesting. But using these models to then explore modelling in the NLP context was mind-blowing! It was really cool how well we were tracking beliefs by only the second day. [...] Not only could we track beliefs & language patterns "on the fly" but we could unravel their interconnections & their interactions conversationally. I thoroughly recommend your course to anyone who wants to improve their skills at tracking language patterns & modelling."
http://www.cognitrix.com/2005 - Elaine ChristakosFinancial Coach, Kelowna, BCAttended Course : Linguistic Wizardry
Jonathan is a superb trainer and communicator. I am thrilled to have participated in his recent Seattle Linguistic Wizardry workshop. Jonathan has a way of transferring knowledge with such ease as to include everyone - regardless of prior training or NLP experience. I was in awe watching how Jonathan managed to reach everyone in a different way - while constantly keeping the entire group engaged. I've now got a renewed excitement for practicing my NLP skills, and am more eager than ever to keep it working for me. Although I thought my coaching calls were great prior to attending LW, soon after my training - I found my calls to be more fluid and effective. The words seemed to flow much easier and my use of embedded commands are more natural and useful. I also am better able to focus my attention on understanding the style of my clients patterns - without losing focus on the content of what I'm teaching. It has all been such a natural process that I'm eager to see where it will be most effective next.
2007 - G.A.Sydney, AustraliaBought Audio : Finding Your Irresistible Voice
After reviewing your CDs I started realising how applicable it was in creating a new improved voice range. I realised that with very little effort people were listening attentively to me, even in crowded places and in places where machinery is constantly running. My workmates noticed it too, dropping comments as to how 'agreeable' it was to listen to my opinions, and how much more rapport was noticeable! My new girlfriend also refers to my voice as to one of my good qualities, which -- in combination with my other NLP techniques -- makes for my voice a seductive weapon of choice. I am recommending it to my friends. Thanks!
2004 - Chris ArellanoNorth CarolinaAttended Course : NLP Practitioner Training
Through this experience, I've gathered many things that I did not have before. I am able to see things, and see them from new perspectives. I have learned and am still learning how to improve both myself as well as those with whom I come in contact. Things I have just described are somewhat vague in description yet very profound to me. I owe much of this trance-formation to Jon for providing the tools and facilitating the use of these new tools in a positive direction. Thank you.
1998 - Chris FialaMarketing Consultant, Clearwater, FLAttended Course : Speaking Ingeniously
"I very much enjoyed your seminar. Having more comfort when I talk with people makes the rapport deeper. Even though my demo is only 90 seconds, I hold longer eye contact with more potential customers, building a sense of connection. Result? Sales of my juicer product increased 30%." -
- Andrew JoyPrincipal French Horn, Cologne Radio Orchestra, Cologne, GermanyBought Audio : Finding Your Irresistible Voice
Your CDs arrived safe and sound. I've listened to the first two and worked on the exercises. I'm a 55 year young, professional principal french horn player and have been working in a top German symphony orchestra for the past 30 years. I listened to the bonus telephone interview today. I am blown away. The results, applying your voice exercises to my playing (and to my students) are phenomenal. Resonance plays a huge role in performing on a brass instrument and very few poeple understand much about it. I've picked up useful and practical information, from singers and voice coaches, that I've been able to adapt to brass playing. Explaining resonance is now easy using your nose, mouth, throat etc, approach. The killer though, is using double resonance. I have free at present and don't have to perform in the orchestra (and the hall) until the beginning of Febuary. However, I am itching to hear how my changed sound is in our hall. It has to be amazing. Your material has added wonderfully valuable understandings to my comprehension of what constitutes excellent quality brass player and has beautifully simplified my means of effectively communicating it to my students. There has been a lot of belly laughter, stunned ears and broad smiles in my teaching studio this week. I'm teaching a course to amateur wind and brass players next year and am looking forward to applying your teachings to this particular situation for the benefit of the people attending. Thanks a million. This is one of the few times in my life where I've been gladly reeling and with a huge smile on my face.
http://www.andrewjoy.com2007 - Maureen StevensonCafe Manager, Nottingham, UKAttended Course : Belief Craft MP3 Set
"As a person who has never attended any NLP or KE Sessions before, I have found the whole experience useful to me and feel that I am going away with a wealth of knowledge I believe will guide me through many areas of my life. I am excited about attending more trainings in the future."
2005 - Howard WolfMiami, FLAttended Course : Persuasion Summit
PTPS was absolutely the best training in persuasion I've ever experienced. Chris' skills in NLP and persuasion are a compilation of the best of Richard Bandler, Kenrick Cleveland, & Michael Hall, all combined. Chris has evolved these techniques, enhanced them, and repackaged persuasion for the new millenium. Chris has tested his techniques thousands of times through the thousands of telemarketers he's managed over the years. This seminar will go down in the annuls of NLP history.
2001