NLP Meta Model - Unpacking Deep Structure & more - NLP chat

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IRC Chat Log, January 28, 1998


Introducing the Meta-Model, & good intentions for its use!
JonathanA How's everyone doing tonight?
TCX Humor on, uptime state...
JonathanA I'd like to ask everyone to consider a few things as we go thru this chat... Specifically... how the Meta Model is used for wonderful results, and also how its misused sometimes. And maybe we can clear up a few phuzzy areas -- like when you hear things about how "the milton-model is the inverse of the meta-model" (which is only partly true). And generally start and end with the whole purpose to the process. Why DO we use the Meta-Model? What's it good for? What are some of its limitations?
Renaissance Details oriented...clarifying the map when it needs clarified.
JonathanA What secondary or tertiary results come from using it? Yes - & here's the thing. We all have a DEEP STRUCTURE of representing the world around us. And we communicate in less than perfect ways about what we've stored internally. Everyone agree about that? What we say to each other is the SURFACE STRUCTURE of our communication.
Renaissance yes, deletions, distortions and nominalizations.
TCX Sure, words just generalize
JonathanA What you HEAR, is SURFACE STRUCTURE. What you DONT, is DEEP STRUCTURE! So the Meta Model, in its simplicity, is designed to help you listen to Surface Structure, identify the real Deep Structure behind it, and provide a working model of your 'subject's internal Deep Structure. Here's the one place in NLP where its "appropriate" to be looking for whats not working in a person! The POINT of the Meta-Model is to find out their DEEP STRUCTURE deletions, distortions, and generalizations! Only once you've identified them, can you begin to linguistically work with them to provide your subject with NEW behavioral options, new behaviors, and new beliefs! GRANTED, by using swishes and other things you can also choose to do some of your work nonverbally, or metaphorically... but you're likely to be more effective if you're targeting their own self-taught impoverished understandings. So now lets go to an Example. And I'm wondering whether you'd all like to use a REAL example, or perhaps want me to 'make something up'
Renaissance can I be the guinea pig?
JonathanA Sure Renaissance ;) Is there something you want to discuss? ;)
Renaissance Ok, here's the deal...I tend to blush when I visualize sex. I think I got it whipped, but this will be helpful I'm sure too.
JonathanA You tend to blush, eh? When visualizing sex?
Renaissance Yes...
JonathanA My intent here, folks, and yours if you play with the Meta Model too, is to FIND OUT how he understands that statement. So I'll turn it around. So when you visualize sex, you tend to blush. Always? Or are there times when you visualize sex and you don't blush?
Renaissance When I'm with someone else. if I try to recreate the situation in my imagination to repeat it, it doesn't happen.
JonathanA Are there times when you visualize sex and another person is there, and your cheeks retain their normal coloration?
Renaissance I tend not to blush by myself very much....once in a while, a comedian will get me.
Renaissance when I'm around friends, it happens, but if it's all guys, very rarely.
JonathanA oh ok -- so now we're getting somewhere. When you're around 1 or more women, and you visualize sex, you blush.
Renaissance uh huh. sometimes that's alright, if their blushing too.
JonathanA I'm wondering if you've ever been around 1 or more women, and its cold out, so, you blush then too, not from visualizing sex
Renaissance that would be true.
JonathanA oh ok, so, blushing occurs from multiple kinds of stimuli, this isn't the only one that would do it.
Renaissance That's true. It's expected when it's cold outside. Everyone does it.
JonathanA How do you know exactly when to blush?
Ollie I always have a problem with questions like that
Renaissance well when you skin gets cold, it knows to blush so you don't get frostbite. wonderful thing, the human body is.
JonathanA Right but, we mean (I think ;) about when you're with a woman, and you visualize sex. ;) And another question -- how do you understand blushing? What happens inside, and what occurs to you during or after a blush?
Renaissance face gets warm
Renaissance after....when I switch away from visualizing, it goes away by itself.
JonathanA What we're doing is PACING every element of Renaissance's Blushing experience as best we can
Renaissance and my face gets colder again.
JonathanA MetaModel is not about leading, its about PACING & building internal models about other people. So you visualize this act... ;) and you start to feel warm in the face? Any sounds in there? Any voices or moans & groans etc?
Renaissance Not that I can recall. There might be now that you suggested it. (oops...installed moan virus. ;) )
JonathanA Well I'm leaving that suggestion right where it is -- decide for yourself ;) (big grin)
JonathanA noprob
Renaissance well, jon, to answer your question, if I did that, the problem would get worse.
JonathanA You mean the voices, right Renaissance?
Renaissance yes.
JonathanA ok -- what I'd like to ask now is why this is a problem? What happens that makes you think its a problem?
Renaissance it starts with a visualization. then my face gets warm. and it's happening right now, just talking about it. neat. :)
JonathanA I suspected as much -- thats good -- it means we're getting into this.
Renaissance well, in this case, it tends to not help rapport if I'm the only one blushing.
JonathanA (tom may be back later folks)
Renaissance I can work around it, but I prefer to work through it.
JonathanA ok, nicely worded ;) So essentially, to get this really clear, if you blush, it means it interferes with your social situations..? Notice I'm STILL not leading him anywhere, folks.
Renaissance it can, yes
JonathanA Does it ever lead to really cool results? (still not leading, I'm JUST asking!)
Renaissance ambiguity install... :) yes...wehn I'm rapport it's like stepping on the gas.
JonathanA not really an install. There wasn't any future pacing, or embedded commands. So sometimes this occurs when you're in rapport and sometimes it occurs when you're out of rapport, because, it just happens naturally in certain situations.
Renaissance yes
JonathanA So I'm finding out what happens in his experience as he went through this process, and what the semantic implications are of the process, when it happens, when it doesn't, what things might occur, what might not occur.... i.e. I'm getting all the parameters of the statement, and getting a valid frame around the issue. The Meta-Model tells me his Rep-System strategy for understanding the process as well. Everyone following here?
Renaissance this is interesting, because it gets harder and harder to answer.
Morag sort of
JonathanA Thats right, it gets more and more detailed.
Dan_26 strategy was the word i was waiting for :)
JonathanA You have to drill down deeper & deeper in order to complete the picture for me. Renaissance thank you for that. We can chat later to do some work with that.
Ollie Yes, I tend to find it hard to answer pretty much from the start :\
Morag can you talk about rapport at this point?
JonathanA Everyone give him a hand
Morag clap
Renaissance that was fun. :)
JonathanA Yes -- thank you for bringing that subject up
Dan_26 applauding
Ollie Jonathan, what if the subject has difficulty answering the questions?
Renaissance you're pretty tough with the model there, Jonathan...
JonathanA We'll get to that one Ollie! ;) OK:

Renaissance it's important to stay in rapport when you do this...! :)
JonathanA Guess what folks, the Meta Model breaks Rapport ;)
Ollie OK. It's sort of an issue because someone was trying to meta-model me the other day and not getting very far because I couldn't answer the questions he was asking.
JonathanA It requires that the subject break rapport themselves, and do lots of deeper & deeper TDS's to answer your questions! TDS = TransDerivational Search
Morag k
JonathanA Ollie without further knowledge I suspect they didn't know what they were doing all that well, but I could be way off. OK. So the Meta Model breaks Rapport. And since it's Recursive (you can use the same kinds of questions again and again as you drill deeper and deeper into the details)...
Renaissance bulldogging the meta model...
Ollie Well, yeah, I think you're right about that... but I don't know how they could have done it to elicit the answers from me.
JonathanA It COULD be a never-ending search for a clearer picture with "accurate" details. So you have to "know or feel" when you've got enough info to work with, and stop before Rapport is lost or before you annoy or bore your friends/family/clients... Lemme relay a funny story that I heard on one of Dilt's videos!
Ollie Hehheh - also rapport wasn't there in the first place, which didn't help.
Dan_26 one would think that a person who primarily works out of a large chunk size would find this level of detail somewhat challening
JonathanA Dilts learned the Meta Model in the first 2-hr class of a Linguistics class he took, and that was on a Thursday. Well, they taught that before they taught Rapport, and by the 2nd class (the next Tuesday) everyone came in looking dejected because they all left the 1st class as meta-monsters, and had proceeded to alienate all their friends & family
Morag I am one of those friends who is annoyed. Any point in my auditing here?
JonathanA Dan who are you referring to? Morag? Please explain?
Renaissance lol!
Dan_26 no one specifically, just a relevant thought that popped into my mind i thought i'd share
JonathanA k. Morag?
Dan_26 (been digging into metmodels a lot lately)
Morag A new friend revealed himself as an NLPer. As a back track on recent time together I feel I was manipulated.
JonathanA ahhh. So were you interested in learning NLP before this occured?
Dan_26 would you feel better, morag, if you had been unconsciously manipulated by someone who didn't know what they were doing?
Morag Had never heard Heard of NLP. But...Had a great time. Then as pulled NLP info off the net I suspected that the mannerism shared views we had in common were actually contrived on his part.
JonathanA Use lots of softeners, use a non-invasive voice, etc. Being challenging usually doesn't help. I see -- OK Morag. I can understand your point.
Morag Challenge is OK
JonathanA I've had that done with me, and I think when its elegant, then even in the face of disparate views I still feel in deep rapport. Ever feel in deep rapport with someone while you're agreeing to disagree? Its quite marvelous. Anyway, Enuf on Rapport.
Morag For example...I offer my cigs around brit style...not common in Canada..He did later in meal back.
Renaissance his purposes for doing that might have been noble. :)
JonathanA IN MY OPINION ;) NLP shouldn't be about being chameleons, it should be about understanding more about who YOU are, and understanding more about how other people are, and how to communicate the differences in an elegant, praise-ful and praise-worthy way! And yes, his purposes could have been noble.
Morag tentative k
JonathanA The best place to "try out new NLP skills" is in the Seminar room, because everyone knows what you're up to, and so there's no danger of ruining potential rapport situations, right? (agreed Morag, tentative) Morag felt something afterwards, in retrospect, that, (and of this I'm sure) his friend never wanted him to have felt. Whatever he did backfired to some degree, therefore...
Ollie I have a friend who tends to complain a lot if she thinks people's opinions aren't their own... if she thinks they're just picking up other people's opinions rather than thinking out their own... so if I disagree with her, and I feel rapport slipping away, I say: "I am allowed to have my own opinion, you know."
JonathanA Alright. So Rapport is important when using the MetaModel because it can be known to break/weaken rapport. Now! Moving on a little. Lets get to some cool stuff
Ollie OK

How & Why Does It Actually Work?
JonathanA Welcome Phoenix!
Phoenix-1 What did I miss?
Renaissance All the good stuff. :P
JonathanA We've gone thru a Meta-Model demo, its purpose, and the element of Rapport in relation to it... and now we're getting into detail.
Phoenix-1 ok, I'll go home :)
JonathanA without further ado... We do 3 things to create internal representations of our reality (our maps). Taking in all kinds of objective sensory data, we muss a lot of it up on the way in! What do we do guys? What 3 things do we do!?
Dan_26 generalize, delete, distort
JonathanA thaaaaank you! OK Lets take Deletion first!
Phoenix-1 im not here
JonathanA We do 4 things when our language indicates a deletion of some kind. Anyone know (without looking it up... ;)
Renaissance I'm not noticing Phoenix....even though he's here.
JonathanA Hah!
Renaissance leave something out.
JonathanA Leave something out... ;) true... that summarizes all of them... OK tell you what I'll go thru them and you can all give me examples!
Phoenix-1 filter
JonathanA (1) Simple Deletion - statement with missing or deficient info
Renaissance all statements do right?
Ollie I thought that was spot on, btw, what you said earlier, Jonathan :)
JonathanA Hah! Good examples! OK. (2) Comparative Deletion - Something thats a LOT more frequently seen
orionben It's more important...
Ollie Now you're making more sense...
JonathanA Something thats a LOT more frequently seen .... THAN WHAT?
orionben Comparative Deletions are definetely more important
JonathanA thaaaaats right! (3) Lack of Referential Index - And what you were saying earlier is absolutely right
Phoenix-1 according to whom
JonathanA So they say (grin!). (4) Unspecified Verb -- This one I leave as a challenging example.
Ollie Things aren't so good today, are they? (That's 2 for the price of 1)
Renaissance is that passive voice?
JonathanA Other good examples?
Renaissance the report was done.
JonathanA YES.
Renaissance engineering reports are all passive voice.
Phoenix-1 she was great :)
JonathanA Alright. So in encountering these 4 things, any one of you can find more value in looking for these sorts of deletions as part of the Meta-Model utilization.
orionben This is fun???
JonathanA ;) OK! Moving on to DISTORTION!
Phoenix-1 wow how green the sky is
Renaissance she's big enough to {beep} in a dumptruck.
JonathanA ewwww
Renaissance lol...I know. ;)
orionben God, did you guys hear that? Phoenix thinks the sky is some weird pea color!
JonathanA (1) Nominalization - Its shoddy epistemology, but its an example!
orionben I love seduction!
Phoenix-1 i love u
JonathanA Examples of Nominalizations!
Renaissance is that your decision.
Phoenix-1 }kiss{ }kiss{ }kiss{
JonathanA love as a verb is not a nominalization ;) but love as a concept is
orionben seduction is the nominalization!
Renaissance loving is the moveable version of love.
Dan_26 any noun you can't put in a wheelbarrel :)
orionben it's changing seducing into an event.
Ollie Love is blind
JonathanA OK More Distortion...
Ollie Times are hard
Renaissance love is like a box of chocolates.
JonathanA (2) Cause / Effect -- and if I give an example here it might cause you to think of others,
Ollie Or even life ;)
JonathanA (wait up guys)
orionben I think discussing these things causes us to learn NLP much faster now!
JonathanA If you jump ahead, you'll be without the rest of us
Renaissance and that's true for everyone because NLP delivers skills to improve all communication and relationships.
JonathanA If you hear "IF - THEN --" then its cause-effect. Thaaats right Renaissance! (3) Mind Reading - This one's cool, I know you guys will like this one
Renaissance I'm confident everyone will.
JonathanA And its really clear you meant something very different by that last example.
Dan_26 yea, i know what you mean
Todd_B I new you were gonna say that
Ollie Jonathan's been itching to tell us about this
Phoenix-1 i know your thoughts MOO HA HA HA
JonathanA hehheh
Renaissance jonathan, but of course because I want everyone to be gloriously happy.
JonathanA You guys are OUT OF CONTROL! I just know it!
Phoenix-1 SNARF
Renaissance I know we'd enjoy the opera together....honey.
JonathanA (4) Complex Equivalence - This one is a little different, thus Clinton's polls are rising. If I blush, it means they know I'm thinking about Sex!
orionben Look, complex equivalence just means that people can make one thing mean another...
Renaissance lol...
Phoenix-1 you did that because you dont love me
Morag his polls?
Renaissance blushing is bad.
Ollie I was here 10 minutes late, so I'm not really qualified to give an example here.
Renaissance but not always... :)
JonathanA OMIGOD Marsha, if I gain 5 pounds he'll never take me out to Dinner
orionben I think these means we understand CE. NEXT
JonathanA (4) Lost Performative - They always talk about this one first. And they say its a good one.
Dan_26 the examples sound similar to cause/effect
orionben They say this one is the most important.
Ollie Isn't CE like Cause/Effect, but in a difference tense?
JonathanA Deer are beautiful creatures!
orionben According to whom?
JonathanA A different sense, perhaps, not necessarily a different tense... ;)
Dan_26 "they say. . . . "
JonathanA Yes they are similar, but instead of their being Equal, one causes the other. One is the predicate or pre-cursor for the other.
Phoenix-1 Bambi tastes gooood
Ollie OK, I see the difference.
Renaissance a =b or a implies b.
Dan_26 metaphor (?)
JonathanA Right Renaissance! Dan, more a simile than a metaphor, if poetic jargon is your thing ;) -- a IS b, not (a is like b)
Dan_26 ok, have to review that one a little more
JonathanA alright....
Ollie That is a metaphor, then
Phoenix-1 logic not= meta-model
JonathanA MOVING ON to Generalization
Ollie (a is like b is a simile)
Phoenix-1 ALL WAYS
JonathanA I always enjoy this one
Renaissance gotcha...ok. women are all beautiful.
Todd_B so is that a distortion, or are we already to generalizations?
JonathanA And you HAVE TO listen carefully, because if you don't you'll never get it and once you've already gotten it you'll definitely never want for more learning anymore!
Ollie I'm never gonna get the hang of this
JonathanA (1) Universal Quantifiers!
JonathanA Always/Never, All/None
Renaissance wait!....isn't a distortion and a generality the same?
Questor_ I always hate it when my wife uses those. :)
Renaissance subclass one of the other?
Phoenix-1 you are always all crazy you never have none of that
orionben no, You're ALL crazy!
JonathanA (2) Modal Operators of Necessity/Possibility -- I just CAN'T go on here... {grin}
orionben It's not necessary to understand this one...
Ollie You must think we're crazy
Renaissance you will never understand me. Nope..that one doesn't count, really.
JonathanA (3) Presuppositions
Ollie You just don't understand me
Renaissance you think I'm fat. (i hate that one.)
JonathanA This one is a little trickier and after you've enjoyed going through some examples , then we'll move on
Phoenix-1 you CAN do that
JonathanA Renaissance Mind-Reading ;)
Ollie I'm ugly
Renaissance it was...wasn't it...ooops.
JonathanA Presuppositions are a lot sneakier than most of these examples, though they're a great start. The presups are usually in the deep structure and rarely make it out into the open ;)
Phoenix-1 I suppose that is true
Ollie no, that's a, erm, whatever it was called... "who says I'm ugly"... wasn't it? what are those called? again?
Renaissance phoenix...good example. according to whom?
JonathanA When presups come out, its like groundhog day, I reach for the mallet. {ploink!}
Phoenix-1 playing "caddyshack" music
JonathanA A double-bind is a complex combination of presuppositions, for those who know the pattern.
orionben Well, I don't know how naturally you can discover all the presuppositions in this sentece, but having done that, maybe you'll be surprised to sigh that sigh of relief...
JonathanA (but by & large I'd like to stay away from the Milton stuff here tonight)
Ollie You're not going to believe this...
JonathanA YES Ollie! Good one!
Ollie but I think I've got it!
Renaissance as you listen to my voice, and ponder these words...
Phoenix-1 I have a intuition about you
Renaissance I got it clicked.
JonathanA I was thinking at first it was mind-reading only, and it is Mind-reading, but you're presupposing the response!
Phoenix-1 have you ever...
JonathanA Yes
Renaissance attention here...presupps are fun to flirt with.
Morag k
Renaissance should I cal you in the morning, or nudge you.

Renaissance see?
JonathanA So we've covered a lot!
Ollie Would you like it Tuesday, or Thursday?
JonathanA We covered the intent of using the MetaModel to learn more about deep structure, and we covered the issue about losing rapport if you're not conscientious as you use it, and we covered the specifics of the Meta Model. So!
Renaissance gotta run for a few...
JonathanA We're pretty close to done here!
Morag bye and thank you
JonathanA I thought now that we've gone thru all that, we could let Phoenix use the Meta Model on someone else's issue!
orionben What sort of issue?
JonathanA You name it!
orionben Well. I'm sick.
JonathanA Sick of what? ;)
Phoenix-1 hey!!!
orionben That's probably not a good one though. I mean I've got the flu
Ollie Could we do mine after orionben's, since it's already been *un*successfully metamodelled and I'd like to see how it should be done?
Phoenix-1 just a minute here - OK Who's 1st
Ollie Ben? You wanna go 1st?
orionben Sure.
Ollie OK. Bags I 2nd, then.
JonathanA Orionben will present an issue!
Phoenix-1 OK What's up (my main meta-model Q)
JonathanA ;)
orionben Well. Ive got the flu. AND I've got to train this weekend...
Phoenix-1 How do... well, you HAD the flu... and How do know you had a flu
orionben WEll, um...
Phoenix-1 thats right :)
orionben I've had a very runny nose, aches, and felt yucky. I hate 'fluing'
Renaissance once you've had it once...then it's everyone elses turn for a while. :)
Phoenix-1 so that HAD happened, what is going to happen next? Renaissance: careful with your installations they could come back 10 fold
JonathanA ewwww
orionben Well, I started taking some killer anti-Bees so I think I'm gonna get heathy soon, I hope
Renaissance ooops...didn't want o make everyone sick...hehe...
Phoenix-1 hmmm, have you gotten wellbefore
Dan_26 what would it be like, now, after you've gotten better and you're looking back at yourself now having made that change as you think about it now?
orionben Oh yes. I have gotten well before!
Phoenix-1 and have you ever felt bad and then felt good for no reason
orionben I have indeed feel bad and then felt good for no reason
Phoenix-1 ALL WAYS :) and have you ever realized a thought you never thought before, now
orionben Yes.
Phoenix-1 and knowing that can you now feel a new feeling
orionben That's certainly possible...
Dan_26 you have no reason to feel good now. . .
orionben Thanks a lot DAN!
Renaissance if you were to act as if that were happening, what other options would open up you could enjoy?
TCX Those are tough ones. Hard to realize a feeling or thought you never had
orionben I personally think I have LOTS of reasons to feel good now! I just don't...
Phoenix-1 Renaissance: hold on the embedded commands
orionben Now I'm really befuddled....
Dan_26 maybe you should think about no reason for feeling good, i mean if it's worked before
Phoenix-1 good
Renaissance dan...:)
Phoenix-1 DAn_26: hold on I'm DOING this session, too many NLPERs spoil the model
orionben That is sooo true!
Renaissance sorry...didn't realize.
Dan_26 oops, sorry, rewind and erase that now
JonathanA Yes Phoenix, ID for everyone where you are in this -- still eliciting the deep structure of the illness description?
Phoenix-1 Jon: AFTER i'M done
JonathanA kewl!
orionben That's right. Now...
Phoenix-1 NOW: Orien, you HaVE felt good before, you HAVE felt bad then good, and you have thought a thought you nevr had before. correct
orionben that's right. Hmmm...
Phoenix-1 Now, Imagine for a moment going on that you are going to do all of them in the next moment . Where do u 1st feel the feeling of all of those at once
orionben Umm wait a moment... processing... in my throat.
Phoenix-1 and this is a postive feeling
orionben No. It's not a positive feeling
Phoenix-1 OK Get the feeling you get when you combine the 3 feelings I discussed earlier
orionben OK. It kind of sucks.
Phoenix-1 hmm it sucks to FEEL GOOD, BAD TO GOOD, UNKNOWN ??
orionben Well, it does suck. And I think it sucks becase I'm sick. I don't have a lot of good feelings in my body right now, I'm sorry to say...
Phoenix-1 STOP! Where do you DO feel good in your body
orionben Sorry, missed that last comment - I feel good, lets see... - It's elusive... - My midsection feels good.
JonathanA cool!
Renaissance where do you DO feel good...I loved that one.
orionben I missed that one!
Renaissance your nose.....your unconscious knows picked it up.
orionben No, I've had too much of that already! Runny nose and all...
Ollie Jonathan - because I know a bit about NLP, I tend to notice things like the embedded commands Phoenix was using. If I notice it does that mean it's not going to work so well? (when it's being done with me, I mean)
orionben It's kind of like that scene in Indiana Jones where she finds one place that feels good and then kisses him there... There aren's arent' a lot of good places...
Phoenix-1 thats not the point, but HOW do you know that the good feeling doesnt SPREAD to the rest of your body, and How do you KNOW that you mind isnt doing process that are affecting that other process so that now the process is processessing properly.
orionben MMMMmmm ahhhhh and then the bad feelings start to spread again... hmmm
Phoenix-1 well thats ok because the bad feelings end. AND the good feelings continue to spread, dont they :)
orionben well, they do continue to spread... Unfortunatly, being as how the bad feelings still are kicking around, I don't exactly feel like a million bucks... However, this has been helpful..
JonathanA ok AWESOME adjustment in modal operators here - one notch at a time.
Phoenix-1 orion: well I understand that used to be the way your body felt AND you can let your mind go...into the healed place
JonathanA We're getting close to the 2 hour mark. Do we want to go for 1 more example or close now? everyone vote...
Phoenix-1 Jon: got for it
Renaissance, phosgene, TCX yes!
Phoenix-1 is this useful to anyone?
Ollie Yes - since the example is me :)
Renaissance i'm learning a LOT!
JonathanA ok Ollie lets recap your issue
orionben Sure. It's just that... (limitation) The usenet is not the best place to actually use NLP skills to get real results...
Phoenix-1 I'll be right back nature calls
Ollie All right - well I haven't said what it is yet so here goes
JonathanA I agree
Phoenix-1 no I am missing at least 12 levels I'd use on you here
JonathanA thats why I'm not going into the Milton Model and any interventions here
phosgene has anyone ever hypnotized someone via computer?
orionben I'm VERY aware of that Phoenix! We're at communication bandwidthe like .01%
JonathanA phosgene -- stay on topic plz -- until after the scheduled chat is over
Ollie RU going to be doing one of these on the Milton Model in the future?
orionben hell yeah! Hypnotising computers can be fun!
JonathanA Sure I will, Ollie
Renaissance every steamy story you find on the internet could easily alter your state, could it not?
JonathanA Ollie?
Ollie K. I don't really know anything about that atm, so that'll be good.
JonathanA you have the floor
Ollie Yes? OK. Well, I'm in a long-distance relationship atm
Phoenix-1 Was up (varition on 1st meta-ques)? Oh! Congrats!
JonathanA yeah!
Ollie & because of the distance, it seems as though it's always either too much or too little
JonathanA No reframing or reblaming guys ;) Too much or too little what, specifically?
Ollie I mean, when we're together it's always several days at a time, without any breaks, which means the emotions can get really intense! I'm finding the intensity difficult to cope with.
JonathanA riiight
Ollie I mean there are practical ways of making it more manageable, which we've been thinking about, but still there's going to be this problem of over-intensity at times, I think. I've been very emotionally repressed for a very long time & only sorted that out shortly before I met her
JonathanA So you've had this problem of over-intensity in recent get-togethers eh?
Ollie so my emotions feel a bit fragile atm.
JonathanA ok.
Ollie Yes.
JonathanA What I'd like to ask is, when you're apart, do you feel like you reallllly want to be together like crazy?
Ollie The last time she was here, it got reeeally intense. Well... we've really only had one absence of more than a few days (it's quite a new relationship)
JonathanA k
Ollie at first, the main feeling was a release from the intensity of the previous few days
JonathanA How long did that take to dissipate?
Ollie then I really wanted to see her again - a few days
JonathanA How much down time did you feel you needed? before the desire crept back up? lets see... So it took a few days eh? And then you wanted to see her again?
Ollie I mean, if it were possible for us just to see each other like in a normal relationship, i.e., usually a few hours at a time, occasionally maybe a full day, and probably 2-4 times a week... that would be fine.
JonathanA What is a normal relationship to you? What does it mean, what does it provide for you? What do you provide for her in that definition?
Ollie A "normal" relationship, well, what I meant by that was what I just described.
JonathanA k, and the other questions there?
Ollie What does it provide for me? Erm, I'll take that as "what would I ideally like out of a relationship", k?
JonathanA sure
Ollie At this stage - about a month in - everything that I would want out of a friendship, *plus*... Hmmm... that's a difficult question... I'll explain why: I keep wanting to answer it in terms of "what do I want the other person to give me..."
JonathanA I understand, I think.
Ollie which I'm fairly open about... but really the main thing I think is the pleasure I get from being with them, without them having to do anything
JonathanA And thats how you'd have to answer it really, if you think about it. In a different way, though, a number of possibilities may open up. OK The pleasure. Now. What about down time? What do you value about your down time away from her? Your independence?
Ollie Yes, certainly
JonathanA How much per day? specifically? Lets pick up the pace here.
Ollie what, how much do I value it or how much of it do I want per day, or something else?
JonathanA How much down time do you need specifically, per day, to feel comfortable and in balance? I've been looking for whats "not being said" mostly in what Ollie is describing. He used a bunch of nominalizations at first, Modal Operators and Universal Quantifiers, which can all be looked at individually to show that there's likely somewhat more balance in his experience than he's willing to admit.
Ollie OK - I would say - per week - maybe 3-4 days when I can decide entirely for myself what to do... per day, on a day when I'm seeing her... most of the time I'd just like to see her in the evening... maybe a full day or half-day every 2 weeks or so. Well... half-day one week, full day next week, let's say.
JonathanA Ahhhah! ;) So that's your idea of an ideal relationship? I'm not judging anything here, just trying to make sure I understand you! At this stage, right?
Ollie At this early stage in the relationship, yes. In particular... I'd like fairly clearly defined "dates". i.e., the evening comes to an end and the date is over.
JonathanA Well, most folks don't know what their partner's idea of an ideal situation is at any similar stages, and they often feel uncomfortable broaching the subject, so... guess what... The difference between what is wanted and what IS, could grow out of proportion. So is any of this news to you?
Ollie What? You think I should broach the subject? I already have.
JonathanA I'd be surprised if you didn't!
Ollie The problems aren't caused by a difference in what I want and what she wants...
JonathanA Everyone here might, as you apply each element of the Meta-Model to what we're hearing here, discover things in what Ollie was saying that showed he was distorting or deleting or generalizing a lot.
Ollie it's a difference between what I want (because it's me who has a problem with it) and what seems to be unavoidable because of the distance between us.
JonathanA Now. His experience is NO LESS VALID for him, even if wellformedness principles don't apply yet gracefully to his relationship strategies...
JonathanA so our intent with the MetaModel would just be to help us to understand his DEEP STRUCTURE more readily, and perhaps to help him to clarify his own situation more, and more freely without some of the deletions, distortions and generalizations that appeared in the initial language used with us. Make sense here?
Ollie i.e., it's not practical to visit each other just for a day - particularly not for an evening, because the trains don't run late enough...
JonathanA Granted I'm not leading with this example for now, but I suspect that just by talking it out with some of these kinds of questions, that Ollie may have even a SLIGHTLY better handle on what he's facing.
Ollie & it's not financially viable to visit for a few days & not stay with each other.
JonathanA I agree Ollie, the situation has pros and cons! Ollie -- without having done any real leading here, do you feel like you understand the situation any better than before we started talking about it?
Ollie But these are practical problems I'm talking about now. I'm not sure... I mean we've discovered a bit about the difference between what IS and what I would like...
JonathanA I agree they're practically problems. ;)
Ollie but what I would like isn't practical... & I don't really see how that helps me to cope with what is.
JonathanA It does seem like you're focusing on what's not working in the relationship, tho! Is that true?
Phoenix-1 ahhh this is never about practical only what works
JonathanA Are you deleting what's wonderful about the time you DO spend together? Or about how much you appreciate the time you DO have to yourself?
Ollie Well, I have been here, because that's the part of it that's causing the problem. Sure, there are good times - in both those categories.
JonathanA oh ok cool. So what is causing the solution?
Ollie What is the solution? The solution is being able to cope with the bad times.
JonathanA Cool.
Ollie No, that's not quite what I meant.
JonathanA hehheh - Are U sure? ;)
Ollie If I could cope with them, they wouldn't be bad.
JonathanA And, are there other solutions?
Ollie The solution is being able to cope with the emotion. I see two ways to cause this: 1) reduce the emotion to a more manageable (less intense) level - & this means either taking practical steps which will certainly help but can only go so far; or somehow managing to love her less... which isn't a solution I want
JonathanA #2?
Ollie 2) increase my capacity for coping with a lot of emotion
JonathanA How about 3) Recognize the goodness present with the badness you mentioned. Is it all black and white or are there lots of shades of grey?
Phoenix-1 Or silver!
orionben Thanks a lot for doing this, Jonathan!
TCX Yea, thanks Jon
JonathanA My pleasure. Thank you for coming tonight -- we had a LOT of great things to cover and I'd like to get closure for the group on what we did rather fully get through! I had a lot of fun and I hope you did too.
Renaissance thanx jonathan and phoenix...this has been a blast.
Phoenix-1 You're very welcome!


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