NLP Submodalities and Synesthesia, Cognitive Change Techniques - NLP Chat Transcript
IRC Chat Log, December 30, 1997
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Submodalities & Synesthesia | |
Jonathan | I was at Dinner minutes ago with a friend of the family... and I was chatting about what I was going to be talking about and opening up discussion on tonight here in the channel... she has no NLP experience and had no idea what the two terms above meant anyway, so it gave me an opportunity to explore some ways into the topic. Anyone wanna throw out their understanding of the terms? Lets get some common definitions out of the way! |
greyhound | I don't remember hearing synesthesia in NLP, but from what I know, it is when you have an experience in one sense as a result of an experience in another.. |
Dan_25 | When I think of submodalities, I think of visual, auditory, and kinesthetic representations. . . and also the gustatorial and olfactory, though not as strong ;) |
Jonathan | Yes... Any others? |
greyhound | A submodality is a quality of an experience in a modality |
Stile | Submodalities are the details of the modalities (the senses); distance, size, vividness |
Jonathan | Yes. |
kalie | When two modalities run together or one seems to trigger another |
Jonathan | Modalities are Visual, Auditory, etc; i.e. just another name for rep systems |
Dan_25 | I look forward to developing an understanding of synesthesia this evening |
kalie | I mean two |
Jonathan | ;) So subModalities are the little controls we have to adjust how a rep system stores information about an experience, then? Is that an acceptable combination of the answers above? |
greyhound | Sure |
Jonathan | OK. We can come back to it if we add to the definitions later. |
kalie | A smell triggers taste. |
Jonathan | Synesthesia! |
Dan_25 | I'm not comfortable with "little controls", I'm picturing knobs and tuners, but I can continue with my interpretation that is fairly consistent with this one. |
greyhound | A loud noise makes you jump? |
Jonathan | Different, greyhound. |
Stile | That's an anchor, right? |
Jonathan | Yes. OK Dan. Lets stick with Stile's definition then. |
kalie | A loud noise creates a feeling |
greyhound | OK |
Jonathan | Details of experience. The qualities of each rep system. In fact, before we get into Synesthesia... lets cover a few. VISUAL SUBMODALITIES -- name 'em folks |
greyhound | Size, distance, brightness, coloredness... |
PlayR | Color, size, fuzziness, location, associated/dissociated |
Jonathan | Detail, texture |
Dan_25 | Shape, framed, 3d/2d, perspective, focus |
Jonathan | Contrast. Great examples! |
greyhound | Texture, a synesthesia? |
Jonathan | Yes; we're not there yet, greyhound. |
Jonathan | Movement? border, shape, location... ;) ok we've got a bunch of good ones then... |
kalie | Frame or panorama |
greyhound | Someone once told me my perceptions are skewed |
Jonathan | How about auditory submodalities? |
Stile | Pitch, location, loudness |
greyhound | Clarity, loudness, direction, pitch |
Stile | Timbre, Internal/external |
Jonathan | Tim...BERRRrrrr! lol (big image & lots of noise!) |
greyhound | Intonation, overtones, harmonics, distance, movement |
Dan_25 | Volume, pitch, timbre, location, Tempo |
PhilAlex | Distortion? |
Jonathan | How about mono/stereo? duration? |
PlayR | Tonal/digital = Tones vs Internal dialogue |
Jonathan | PlayR explain please? |
greyhound | Single source, many sources, wall outlets, easy chairs |
Jonathan | One more -- Inflection -- what gets emphasized or analog-marked... OK, on to: Kinesthetic (Kino) Submodalities? |
Stile | Position, texture, pressure |
greyhound | Temperature |
Jonathan | Movement or motion |
Dan_25 | Location, sensation, movement, intensity, volume |
Jonathan | Let's qualify what kinds of sensation... |
kalie | Location, temperature, vibration |
greyhound | Mass |
Jonathan | Like what Stile already covered |
greyhound | Volume? |
Jonathan | Ooooh, Kino Volume! Yeah! As in... intensity, I suppose... |
Dan_25 | My map, volume as in the amount of space the kino uses in its presence |
greyhound | OK |
Jonathan | Ahhhh better, yes -- you guys are ahead of me on that one...! |
kalie | Contrast -- e.g. one knee to another |
greyhound | That's a good one |
Jonathan | ;) thanks! alright... how about duration too? things change thru... time... |
greyhound | Doh |
Stile | Hehehe |
Jonathan | Alright. |
greyhound | pleasure, pain? |
kalie | time a sub-mod? |
Jonathan | Pleasure and pain can be defined in terms of the other sensations more accurately. I think many people will describe the two as having many of the same components. |
greyhound | hmmnnn -- ok |
Jonathan | do you think? Tell me differently if you think otherwise, I'm definitely interested in alternative understandings of it. |
greyhound | makes some sense; some people like what other people think of as painful |
Stile | it makes sense... we're drawn towards some submod combinations and repelled from others -- like in propulsion systems |
Jonathan | yes... that's what I was thinking but this could be useful to draw out for another minute or two... (useful for later in the discussion) |
kalie | sub mods arn't subjective |
greyhound | but doesn't what you feel cause you to do things, or can you skip that and just see=>do , or hear=>do |
Jonathan | depends on the person but now you're adding in motivational strategies. We can go there later if theres time... |
greyhound | k |
Stile | hehe |
Jonathan | I want to cover mostly (and you folks can redirect elsewhere if you want to as a group!) the way we can optimize our accessing of memories and adjustment of submods through a more thorough understanding of synesthetic triggers, without dealing with beliefs and strategies... at least, tonight... is that an acceptable approach to the group? |
Stile | sounds delicious |
Dan_25 | can we define a synesthetic trigger for mutual agreement? |
greyhound | ok |
kalie | y |
Jonathan | sure I was waiting to go to SYNESTHESIA until we were through with the submods ;) we can go there nooooooooowwwww lol |
kalie | two driver modalities in the context of the experience |
Stile | hehe |
Jonathan | Ooooh, nice one kalie |
Dan_25 | sorry, your last statement sounded like a transition, oops! :) ok. . . can you define a "driver modality"? :) |
kalie | driver- primary |
Stile | the "main" modalities of an experience |
greyhound | yeah, what's that? |
Dan_25 | okay, that's where I was |
greyhound | lead system? |
Jonathan | Synesthesia is the combination of two or more representational systems as concurrent elements of an experience, either in the moment or in memory. The "now" moment can be synesthetic too, right? |
Dan_25 | so whatever 2 of the three modalities is most present in the experience itself? |
kalie | the lead modality triggers the others |
Jonathan | Sure, it can. |
greyhound | what's driver modality |
kalie | in synesthesia they co-mingle |
Dan_25 | is this something I already know with a new label, or is it something beyond what most NLP texts discuss? |
Jonathan | Something you already know... |
kalie | The primary and usually first modality is driver |
Jonathan | lets keep the terminology minimized -- or at least balanced with real-world accessible descriptions of what we're talking about... |
Stile | I think Using your brain discusses it |
kalie | basic practitioner level NLP |
Jonathan | OK, FULL STOP for a second please.. lets come up with an example. The gal I was chatting with earlier.. said, "what do you mean..." |
greyhound | of course she did :) |
Jonathan | I said, can you recall a time when you said something which turned out to be really embarrassing, and you wished you could undo it? And every time you had thought about it or ran it over into your head... the feeling got worse? She said OOOOOhh yeah, I said, where's the sound coming from? she said, well, its in my head, I guess. I asked her if she could repeat the thing she heard internally... but move it out to her shoulder, and she smiled, and said maybe... She was trying. I said, what about turn the volume down... she said yeah... |
Stygian | Why does Ross always say "Full Stop" every few sentences he rights now? |
greyhound | I don't care Sty, please leave him out too. I don't even care if he is here right now |
Jonathan | (folks please send comments like that privately to the person you're responding to) |
greyhound | k |
Stygian | Sorry I thought it was some kind of NLP |
Dan_25 | it's a command to completely stop all thought processes now and listen to what is about to be said, and as you do that now, you'll understand what it means |
Jonathan | I said, "OK, what about moving the voice down to your elbow, turning the volume down and the pitch way up?" She kind of stared at me like a deer caught in headlights ;) ...and here's the magic: I said, "can you visualize a tiny you, sitting on your elbow, dressed in a clown suit, saying that thing with a high pitch, in low volume...?" She grinned, and said "yeah..... NOW I can...." OK. Real world example over! When I added in the visual for her, in combination with the auditory adjustments, she was able to make the changes easily. |
greyhound | Full Stop |
Jonathan | ;) |
greyhound | I c |
Dan_25 | and that's use of synesthesia? |
Jonathan | Now. That is one use of synesthesia yes. |
greyhound | she had difficulty with just the auditory? |
Jonathan | The example as described doesn't get into whether she did the change fully synesthetically or whether the visual was more of a trigger for the auditory construction... |
greyhound | He wanted to see her in a clown suit and talking deep |
Jonathan | but because it involved multiple rep systems, from a HIGH level, it was synesthetic. |
Dan_25 | ok, that fits comfortably into what I already have as apart of my map with a shiny new label :) |
greyhound | will she do that in future embarrassments? |
Stile | she now has the choice to do it again =) |
Dan_25 | did you future pace and see her response to the memory afer this? |
Jonathan | Of course, Dan... ;) |
Dan_25 | was waiting for that part :) |
Jonathan | It was presented in the structure of an educational discussion, so she knows she can do this... again... and she understands experientially how it makes the embarrassment laughable... Now. that's one form of synesthesia, where overlapping rep systems can ease the changes to -- or accessing of -- memories... Another form is when two or more systems are accessed essentially concurrently. |
greyhound | Ok, now what do I do with the little clown girl I have on my elbow? Can I keep her, she's kinda cute |
PlayR | for traumatic memories? |
Jonathan | When I memorize a phone number, I do three things at once... |
Stile | see it, dial it, hear it? |
greyhound | how do you feel a phone number? |
Jonathan | I see myself pressing the numbers... I feel the keypads on my fingertips... and I feel the motion in my fingers... |
greyhound | all the numbers feel the same -- hmmnnn -- position -- relative to the 5 key, or something |
Jonathan | yes! and I hear the tones... at the same time as I hear the #'s said in my head. sure. Make sense? |
greyhound | ok |
Jonathan | So basically in that example... I'm just using as many senses as possible to make the # stick in my head! (just read your clown girl comment, greyhound -- that's really funny) Alright. |
greyhound | make it melodic, might help.. 8675309.. |
Stile | how do you attach the name to the number? |
Dan_25 | yes. . . I repeat the number, find a numerical relation with the numbers (year/date/something), and then play "connect the dots" with the numbers on the dial to create an image of the numbers |
greyhound | I usually sing the number, sorta, now that I think of it |
Jonathan | Can anyone remember some other examples of Synesthesia? |
greyhound | more/less purple |
Jonathan | Dan that's a complex strategy, but hey if it works for you, ;) |
Dan_25 | to me, yours is a little complex, but I can see how it works :) |
Jonathan | LOL Dan, ya-got-me |
Dan_25 | ok, I'll let ya go now :) |
greyhound | I found a powerful one with me once... I have a really bad reaction to images that have the lower left magnified.. I moved the magnification to my right.. and I felt good. same image... |
Jonathan | Interesting submod qualification greyhound. |
greyhound | now that I think of it, I don't think I have a problem with that anymore |
Jonathan | LOL |
greyhound | I forgot all about it till you asked |
Jonathan | I wonder if another sensory rep system helped you change that... ;) |
greyhound | hmmmnn |
Jonathan | Anyone else? |
Dan_25 | I would love for someone to share a similar technique using synesthesia to learn names/faces.. . :) |
Jonathan | Ahhhh.... |
Stile | when I prepare to break a brick, I feel what it will be like to go through it at the same time I see what will happen |
greyhound | my roommate has this stamp that he stamps "idiot" on the forehead of anyone that smokes..hahaha |
Stile | wow nice one =) |
Jonathan | LOL! |
greyhound | he's sorta difficult |
Jonathan | I know people that stamp names on foreheads too. That seems to work for many people! |
greyhound | I wonder if that would work for me |
Dan_25 | I did try that one, but apparently I need to involve another modality as well ") |
greyhound | I'm an emotional guy, everything seems to need a feeling aspect to it, I feel like Hellen Keller |
Jonathan | What about saying the name... seeing the name stamped on the forehead, and... (this one can get a little creative) |
greyhound | I can hand carve it... feel each letter :) |
Stile | me too... I feel my hand write things as I watch it write |
Jonathan | If it doesn't uniquely qualify the person, then it doesn't help much; but if you can make a simple metaphor from the name... then you can add specific qualities... |
greyhound | maybe a typewriter :) keys smacking their foreheads |
Dan_25 | maybe different fonts for different folks. . . anyway, don't let me bring us too far off topic |
kalie | I create it in the air (upper left) then read it backward |
greyhound | gotta treat new people better anyway. Maybe a paintbrush? |
Jonathan | Oooh, fonts... now that's kewl... OK. {moving on} Mozart was known to have heard, seen, and felt a symphony concurrently before ever writing it down... |
greyhound | hmmnnn, no, that's what I do when I forget |
Jonathan | So lets take stock of where we are... we defined the terms... we gave a LOT of submodality qualifications... We've covered two types of synesthesia... starting with something in one rep system, having difficulty, then overlapping into a different rep system to help maximize the efficacy of the task we're after... or adding others in to help cause us to remember things more effectively... |
greyhound | so what do I do with this clown girl? (just kidding) |
Stile | she's your slave forever... so anything you want ;) |
greyhound | I don't want her to be a slave :( |
Dan_25 | She's just there to entertain you with your most embarrassing moments |
Jonathan | She's so small though... I mean, just big enough to sit on your elbow. |
greyhound | She was ok, but now theres a Volkswagon with her |
Jonathan | Can anyone think of other Synesthesia examples or purposes? |
grazzhppr | I associate them with something - usually visual |
greyhound | no, I like her small |
Jonathan | OK... |
grazzhppr | I.e., Joan - I think of Joan of Arc - or at least the painting of J of A |
Stile | to shift submodalities (i don't visualize well and it helps me if I feel something and then transition into seeing it) |
Jonathan | now that we've covered a number of topics here I want to chunk up a bit and deal with the purpose of using these tools! When I think of submodalities... nahhh.... when YOU think of submodalities... do you do it consciously? |
Dan_25 | and by implication stile, I think that would take an individual into a deeper altered state (dare I say trance?) |
Stile | yes :) |
greyhound | sometimes |
Jonathan | I think that as your skills with NLP increase... and they have, haven't they...? ...the extent to which you intentionally think, "OK I'm increasing the brightness Visual Submodality" reduces dramatically. |
Dan_25 | only when you want it to now I suppose :) |
Jonathan | You just DO it. You make the changes. |
greyhound | I Can, heh |
Jonathan | You go inside and you discover what isn't right about what you want to begin to change more effectively than you had... not yet... begun to do it better and better and louder and louder and adjusted the location of things... |
Dan_25 | they are automatic, yes jonathan, this has occurred tremendously over the last year for me |
Jonathan | and wondered just how you might feel if you right now right there... did a FULL STOP ;) |
Stile | and doubled it... and doubled it again? doh |
Jonathan | and suddenly think of something you want to feel a LOT more pleasure about. Something that happened in the last year, say. Something that you didn't feel good about then, or afterwards, but want to feel GREAT about. ;) And find out how you experience it. |
greyhound | I just made another clown girl for my left elbow :) |
Jonathan | Find out if its pictures or sounds... or feelings first... but probably the former... and if you were feeling pain in the past... regarding this thing you want to change your perceptions about. I want you to find out what the qualities of the pain are, while visualizing the process of looking inward for the pain... in a DISSOCIATED WAY, find out what the KINO qualities of the pain were, discover how close many of them are to pleasure submodalities... Take another experience in which you experienced pleasure... LOTS of pleasure... and get those kino submods... I'm very clear on how I want to get rid of that crap! And then look to MUCH BETTER much more positive things! You can do it with verbal approaches or you can do it in resource triangles or whatever. Many people want to NEUTRALIZE negative feelings associated with particular experiences... so that they have access to the information associated with those memories. |
Stile | can't you just do the phobia cure on it? |
Jonathan | SURE! We can party and go RIGHT for the pleasure and avoid it completely. |
greyhound | I didn't have anything positive with me went I "went down" |
Jonathan | Stile, the phobia cure is NOTHING more than double-dissociation combined with reverse visualization. |
Stile | exactly. hmmm that's another submod... going in reverse |
greyhound | and I think I stirred up alot of negative stuff and brought it back up with me |
Jonathan | Many clients really desire having the existing crap still around, withOUT negative emotion associated with it! Its often what they desire more than just going for the gusto! |
greyhound | I would be one of those clients sir. I value all my crap. |
Dan_25 | it's a little funny, when I first got into NLP and did those exercises, they had a tremendous impact on me, and I think that process generalized to all experiences you are labelling as "pain". . . now i'm seeking more intense pleasure and the ability to share it with others :) |
Jonathan | so I hope we've come to some understanding on this. The reality of doing NLP with a lot of people, unfortunately, I guess, is that many people would simply like to just eliminate the pain associated with important experiences. And we CAN GO BEYOND that to PLEASURE, but its GOOD to neutralize the negative first. |
Dan_25 | the "painful" ones remaining, if there are any, are not currently accessible. . . from my world model anyway, back to the program :) |
Jonathan | And the fastest way to do that -- with OTHER PEOPLE -- is often a touch anchor for the dissociated discomfort, plus a touch anchor for a massively pleasurable experience, and ... forgive the JARGON... then do a KINESTHETIC Squash. Here's what that means: If you have the pain anchor, and the pleasure anchor, and you've tested both... then fire BOTH together. Hold them steady and watch their neurology mix up... then release the negative anchor.... and maintain the positive one for a little while... It will NEUTRALIZE the negative one. |
greyhound | anchors don't work well for me -- those wrist ones, etc. don't work |
Stile | greyhound: as their voice becomes clearer and more understandable, do you notice that the advice they will be giving you throughout your life is very valuable, and how well it will serve you for years to come? |
greyhound | would you listen to a clown? OK, they are *cute* clowns |
Dan_25 | if it resolves the issue and is ecological for the person, then yes, step out of the pain! |
Stile | can you anchor the associated state first and then the dissociated state and chain those? |
Jonathan | Sure...and by virtue of the "chain" you'd want to set up a gentler sequence from initial to pleasure... i.e., more interim states... that eases the flow from initial to final... |
Stile | maybe a state of contemplation and inner reflection on the meaning of life ;) |
Jonathan | Sometimes a shock state can be followed with anything. I like to follow up shock with surprise (has a humorous edge to it)! I can take that combo almost anywhere afterwards... Alright, folks! It's about that time. These chats sometimes get either tired or raunchy at this hour, so I'm going to close it out! Thanks for coming! |
IRC CHAT OVER! |
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